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Old 12-23-2009, 03:03 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Here's a government study from 2001:
FEA chapter III. tire pressure survey and test results

Scroll about halfway down the page to "Vehicle Stopping Distance Tests." Unfortunately, they only tested up to 35 psi :-(

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Old 12-23-2009, 08:33 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dremd View Post
Not sure why everyone doubts such basic physics.
Easy test.

You need
Scale (spring for measuring force),
Wooden block,
various bits of tire (my high school and college physics teachers both spent more time telling us no to cut ourselves on steel cords than the experiment),
String
Some surface to frag on (floor, table, pavement, etc)

Basic test, drag a mass along on the same surface with each tire type, cut tire piece in half repeat (with scrap tire on top of mass), cut the remaining piece in half repeat (again scrap on top).

The various sizes of tire represent the contact patch with different inflation pressures.
You will quickly realize that contact patch has extremely little to do with friction (traction)
In order for this experiment to be valid, you'd have to apply downforce equivalent to what a real tire experiences, and you can only measure static friction.

In other words, you might as well use a real car. And real cars prove that higher pressure inflation pressure = smaller contact patch = less total traction.

Or just try telling an race driver that tire pressure doesn't affect grip because your blocks and scales said so.
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Old 12-23-2009, 09:05 PM   #93 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=winkosmosis;149709]In order for this experiment to be valid, you'd have to apply downforce equivalent to what a real tire experiences, and you can only measure static friction.

The force of gravity pulling the block down represents the force of the car.
Are you implying that the experiment needs suspension?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
In other words, you might as well use a real car. And real cars prove that higher pressure inflation pressure = smaller contact patch = less total traction.
How exactly do you claim that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
Or just try telling an race driver that tire pressure doesn't affect grip because your blocks and scales said so.
The primary Reason why the lower pressure is used in race cars is heat (see linked Article in post #1).

I'm not totally naive about tires at the track.
My Racing Credentials are totally amature.
77 SCCA SOLO II "trophies", a hand full of best PAX scores, and one fastest time mostly in an 89 N/A Auto Supra With Tires in the 55 psi zone (Had no Idea why at the time, other than Butt Dyno and times) (depended on temp) or about 30 in the Wet (Boy Did I love embarrassing EVO's and WRX's in the rain).
4 "stunt driving" Credits in Commercials All local . . . .
A hand Full (10?)of Track days in various Supras
2 Track Days in the Golf tdi
1 Track Day in the Lemons Car
2 Lemons Races.
Went Drag racing basically every weekend for 4 years (told me to quit coming back to bracket racing), mostly in a slow 87 Turbo 5 speed supra.

(Good Lord have a wasted TONS of Gasoline)

I do not Claim that in racing conditions that higher pressures don't affect anything, what I claim is that on the street (DRY!) higher pressure has no/ very small affect on stopping distance.

Edit: I'm 99% sure that this has already been posted in this thread, but http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...ure/LTPW3.html
Why would data provided by good year look like higher pressures decrease stopping distance, granted chart stops at 35 PSI.
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:25 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Aren't there a number of different questions on the table?

1) Does the size of a tire's footprint affect grip?

2) Does inflation pressure affect a tire's grip?

These may appear to be the same question, but asked in a different way, but I think you'll find they have some interestingly different aspects that bear exploration.

Lastly,

3) Friction theory: Do tires behave according to classical fiction theory, where F = µN, nad where µ has a lower value for sliding friction than for static friction.

So which question are we trying to answer?
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:46 AM   #95 (permalink)
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By winkosmosis
Quote:
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by dremd)---
Not sure why everyone doubts such basic physics.
Easy test.

You need
Scale (spring for measuring force),
Wooden block,
various bits of tire (my high school and college physics teachers both spent more time telling us no to cut ourselves on steel cords than the experiment),
String
Some surface to frag on (floor, table, pavement, etc)

Basic test, drag a mass along on the same surface with each tire type, cut tire piece in half repeat (with scrap tire on top of mass), cut the remaining piece in half repeat (again scrap on top).

The various sizes of tire represent the contact patch with different inflation pressures.
You will quickly realize that contact patch has extremely little to do with friction (traction)
---End Quote---
In order for this experiment to be valid, you'd have to apply downforce equivalent to what a real tire experiences.
I *think* am asking the same question in the quote you are replying to,
Quote:
The force of gravity pulling the block down represents the force of the car.
Are you implying that the experiment needs suspension?
Please explain.
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:18 AM   #96 (permalink)
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there was an article about a police department that realized many performance benefits from higher tire pressure:
Driving Under Pressure: Editorial & Features at Officer.com

But I'm sure some low pressure zealot cried about it until the chief decided not to be so open about it.

Anyway higher pressure means:
stiffer sidewalls ++
improved cornering ++
reduced hydroplaning ++
longer tire life ++
less heat buildup ++
reduced braking distance++
lower rolling resistance (for more mpg!!!) ++++++++++

TIRE PRESSURE SURVEY AND TEST RESULTS

note that the rolling resistance gains flattened out at about 45 psi in Darins test, so I'm NOT suggesting 1200 psi here. http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ures-2721.html

and coming up with your own skidpad and braking tests isn't all that challenging, and a lot more believable than arguing or citing some bit of media hype.

But who doesn't like a good old fashioned tire inflation smackdown?
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Last edited by dcb; 12-24-2009 at 07:04 PM..
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:53 PM   #97 (permalink)
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I've tried to comment on this thread a few times now, but for whatever reason, they aren't posting.

There is a NHTSA study on tire pressure and stopping distance. Google "NHTSA TIRE PRESSURE SURVEY AND TEST RESULTS" and it should be the first result. Scroll about half way down the page to "Vehicle Stopping Distance Tests."

I think maybe the link was getting my previous posts flagged as spam?

Unfortunately, they never took to the tires up to max sidewall pressure, just recommended pressure for the vehicle :-(

Last edited by natefish; 12-24-2009 at 04:53 PM.. Reason: corrected "are" to "aren't"
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:35 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Shouldn't tire wear be a factor as well?

For instance the 4 tires on my jeep are about 1000 dollars a set.

I know that on other all terrain tires over inflation
will grind the center away...

Dave
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Old 12-28-2009, 03:52 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwtaylorpdx View Post
Shouldn't tire wear be a factor as well?

For instance the 4 tires on my jeep are about 1000 dollars a set.

I know that on other all terrain tires over inflation
will grind the center away...

Dave
In all the years I've been putting too much air in everything out of sheer laziness, I've never experienced this to any measurable degree.

I have very limited experience with Bias ply highway rated tires, though, and seldom use "balloon" tires or those with an unreasonably high aspect ratio or unreasonably wide tread pattern under the same circumstances as other highway rated tires.
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:34 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Link added to a post in clean MPG with the article on tire pressure by a police officer. The article has been removed from the site were it was first posted.

Driving Under Pressure (full article) - CleanMPG Forums



Sgt. Dave Storton - Officer.com - December 21, 2005

How many officers check the tire pressure on their patrol car on a regular basis? We all seem to be great at checking that the lights and siren work, because the time to find out they don’t work is not when you get a Code 3 call. Likewise, the time to find out your tire pressure is too low is not when you are in a pursuit and trying to take a corner at high speed.

What is proper pressure?

The proper tire pressure for the Police Crown Victoria is 44 psi. If you look on the sidewall of the tire, you will see that it lists 44 psi max pressure. Regardless of what vehicle you have, use the maximum pressure listed on the sidewall. Higher pressure results in better performance, decreased tire wear, and it lessens your chance of hydroplaning at a given speed. [bolded for emphasis] This number on the sidewall lists “the maximum amount of pressure you should ever put in the tire under normal driving conditions.” Pursuits and Code 3 responses are not “normal driving conditions.” Many agencies maintain tire pressure at 35 psi since this is what is listed in the owner’s manual and on the door placard. The reason the owner’s manual lists 35 psi is because we get the same manual as the civilian version of the Crown Victoria. The police version, however, is fully loaded with communications equipment, a cage, and your gear. You are not looking for a soft and cushy ride, you want performance.

Myths about pressure

Let’s put to rest some common misconceptions. The tires will not balloon out creating a peak in the center portion of the tread when tire pressure is above 35 psi. There is a steel belt that prevents this from happening. Also, you are not overstressing the tire with higher pressure, and the tire will not be forced off the rim with higher pressure. The picture above is Bobby Ore of Bobby Ore Motorsports driving a Ford Ranger on two wheels. The tires on the left side have 100 psi in them, and they happen to be tires and rims from a 1999 Crown Victoria! This is a dramatic example of how pressure holds the tire in shape, and how much stress a tire can handle.

Performance

If you were able to watch a tire as it travels across the ground at high speed, you would see that it deflects to one side during cornering. The faster you are going through a corner, the more tire deflection you get. As the tire deflects over onto the sidewall, you get less traction and more of a tendency to understeer or oversteer. This could spell disaster when negotiating a corner at high speed during a pursuit or a Code 3 run. Higher pressure keeps the tire from deflecting onto the sidewall as much, which keeps more of the treaded portion on the road.

A good demonstration for EVOC instructors is to have students drive a high-speed course in a vehicle with 32 to 35 psi. Then have them run the same course with 44 to 50 psi in the tires. The student will experience a marked difference in performance. Having officers experience this difference in vehicle performance is much more effective than just telling them to check their tire pressure.

Hydroplaning

When a tire rolls across a road covered with water, the tire tread channels water away so the rubber remains in contact with the road. The factors that affect hydroplaning are speed, and water depth. Conventional wisdom says that vehicles will hydroplane in as little as 1/16th of an inch of water. Not so coincidentally, legal tread depth is 1/16th of an inch.

Tire manufactures and the Association of Law Enforcement Emergency Response Trainers International (ALERT) have shown that tires have more of a tendency to hydroplane when pressure is low. This happens because the tire footprint (the portion of the tire actually in contact with the road) is larger. For those of you who water ski, think of which is easier to get up on: a fat ski or a skinny ski. More tire surface in contact with the water makes it easier to hydroplane, just as it is easier to water ski on a fat ski. Also, a soft tire can be pushed in more by the pressure of the water on the center portion of the tread. This results in less rubber in contact with the road.

Tire wear

Much better tire wear results from maintaining proper pressure. Tires with lower pressure will wear off the outside of the tread faster from the deflection of the tire during cornering, and the tires will heat up more from increased road friction. This is one of the factors that caused the failure of a certain brand of tires on Ford Explorers some years ago. In 1999 the San Jose Police Department realized a significant cost savings by increasing the pressure in the training fleet to 50 psi. They soon followed up by increasing the pressure in the patrol fleet to 44 psi. For liability reasons, most agencies are reluctant to exceed the maximum pressure listed on the tire for actual patrol vehicles, but they reap the cost saving when going to 50 psi on training vehicles.

Next time you inspect your vehicle, make sure you check your tire pressure since your ability to performance drive is significantly affected by it. You are not driving to the store to get a loaf of bread! You may be called upon to chase a dangerous criminal or respond to assist another officer in trouble. You don’t wonder whether or not your gun is loaded before you hit the street; don’t’ wonder whether your tire pressure is correct once the pursuit starts. Check your tires routinely, just as you do with all other critical equipment...

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