The Kamm research cars

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by orange4boy

I don’t like it when my ecomodder parents argue.

Unfortunately, a great deal of what Aerohead writes here is misleading or wrong.

Those of us here who have read any aero textbooks or SAE papers (especially ones from the last few decades), or carried out thorough on-road testing (eg of aerodynamic pressures), can see how much he leads people astray.

We are not talking about small errors but instead very major ones that go to the heart of how we can best aerodynamically modify our cars.

Everyone can make mistakes, but what really stands out with Aerohead is that he:

(1) refuses to change his views, no matter what evidence is cited

(2) refuses to read any current aero textbooks or papers

(3) has become increasingly erratic in the statements he makes in support of his odd theories

(4) now often personally abuses those who disagree with him.

That it has taken people here so long to see all this surprises me, but then again, Ecomodder has been described to me as 'being like a cult' - and there are certainly some similarities!

[freebeard]

Everyone can make mistakes, but what really stands out with Aerohead is that he:

Is abused by the Excessive Capitalization Crowd.

(3) has become increasingly erratic in the statements he makes in support of his odd theories

...for certain values of 'increasingly'

That it has taken people here so long to see all this surprises me, but then again, Ecomodder has been described to me as 'being like a cult' - and there are certainly some similarities!

Gotta ask: Where do yo hang around that such descriptions abound? Reddit?

[orange4boy]

Interesting video. Thanks.

Julian, I have great respect for your work, but I think your perspective here is a little off.

(1) refuses to change his views, no matter what evidence is cited

Respectfully, while it's nice if people change their views to one's own, no one is required or should be expected to do so. Post your stuff and let the community decide. You can't police everything. Going onto lists of personal misbehaviour is not in the spirit of this kind of discussion. This goes for everybody.

(2) refuses to read any current aero textbooks or papers

A good idea and encouraged but not required or expected.

(3) has become increasingly erratic in the statements he makes in support of his odd theories

That's pretty subjective.

(4) now often personally abuses those who disagree with him.

I didn't see anything abusive in this thread. There is a process for abusive behaviour. Accusing people of it in threads where there in no evidence of it is not terribly helpful.

(5)That it has taken people here so long to see all this surprises me, but then again, Ecomodder has been described to me as 'being like a cult' - and there are certainly some similarities!

A vast generalization aimed at the entire community. Every community seems to have some icons and cultures that are not ideal. Getting into flame wars about those does not seem to solve anything. It often just makes you seem unnecessarily argumentative. You can always ignore content you don't like or point out things you disagree with but try to keep it about the facts. People will make up their minds regardless based on the quality and thoroughness of your posts and generally, yours are very through and of high quality.

Hopefully, you do not take my comments the wrong way. I'm trying to be helpful but I'm not an expert on anything, let alone human interaction.

I'll bugger off now.
Cheers.

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by orange4boy

Respectfully, while it's nice if people change their views to one's own, no one is required or should be expected to do so. Post your stuff and let the community decide. You can't police everything. Going onto lists of personal misbehaviour is not in the spirit of this kind of discussion. This goes for everybody.

Sorry, you'd rather that misinformation is disseminated? That's what we're talking about here - incorrect information. Factually wrong. Misleading of others.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Read some current aero textbooks. Read some current SAE papers. Do some on-road testing. Find out for yourself.

I didn't see anything abusive in this thread. There is a process for abusive behaviour. Accusing people of it in threads where there in no evidence of it is not terribly helpful.

Maybe read some of the other threads?

Here are some recent samples from Aerohead:

Your words/ behavior is so bizarre that, perhaps, only a visit to a psych ward would be a logical solution. They could help with the incivility, ungentlemanly conduct, chronic confabulation , visions of grandeur, and self-importance. Undeserved.

and

words of a seemingly complete coward. Terrified to reveal their manifest ignorance of aerodynamics. Forever hiding under the skirts of others, incapable of defending their thesis in their own tongue. Pitiful! Ignorant. Illogical. Irrational. Incoherent. Defies physical law. Disrespect of all, then feigns surprise when receives push-back, as if everyone else is presumed spineless, and as impotent. Hypocritical. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

and

There's the old perspicacity-deficit disorder as always. I don't know how you dress yourself. Foot into sleeve. Neck into fly.......................

and

Stated perfectly by one, completely devoid of critical thinking, and ability of reading between lines for context, after given all information necessary for the understanding and premise of the thread.
You frighten me

A vast generalization aimed at the entire community. Every community seems to have some icons and cultures that are not ideal. Getting into flame wars about those does not seem to solve anything. It often just makes you seem unnecessarily argumentative. You can always ignore content you don't like or point out things you disagree with but try to keep it about the facts. People will make up their minds regardless based on the quality and thoroughness of your posts and generally, yours are very through and of high quality.

That's exactly what I am doing.

[JulianEdgar]

And to address your other points...

I said: (2) [Aerohead] refuses to read any current aero textbooks or papers

Originally Posted by orange4boy

A good idea and encouraged but not required or expected.

Sorry, I would in fact expect it of someone who is giving advice on the modification of current cars, and who makes no qualification as to the relevance of the advice being given.

It's similar to someone giving advice on engine management, when the most recent formal book or tech paper they have read on the subject is dated 1987. As you'd expect, in that situation, a great deal of their advice will be wrong or misleading.

Cars have, in round figures, halved in Cd since 1987, and that has come about because of major changes in aerodynamic flows around cars. Changes that Aerohead ignores.

I said: (3) [Aerohead] has become increasingly erratic in the statements he makes in support of his odd theories

That's pretty subjective.

Well, some others here have agreed with me. We're talking statements that are so obviously wrong (like that a Porsche Macan must have separated flow on the roof, because that's Aerohead's theory) that I can only describe them as erratic. But honestly, 'ludicrous' might be a more accurate term.

I don't care what Aerohead believes, but I do care a great deal when he misleads others. And to reiterate, we're not talking about nuances of opinion; we're talking about outright errors in understanding and advice.

[freebeard]

Still wondering about "Ecomodder has been described to me as 'being like a cult'".

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Still wondering about "Ecomodder has been described to me as 'being like a cult'".

Sure.

1) Someone on my YouTube channel comments said that EcoModder was like a cult.

2) Then a person on this forum, well-informed and thoughtful, wrote to me that he was reminded of a religious belief when someone said they 'truly believed' in the BS Aerohead was pushing, rather than assessing the peer-reviewed evidence as to the validity of what Aerohead was writing.

Yes, I said to myself, EM does have some characteristics of cult, doesn't it?

[freebeard]

Fair enough. Youtube comments is pretty close to the canonical "Lurkers support me in email".

If it wasn't a cult there wouldn't be opportunity to contend for Alpha status. What's the fun in that?

[AeroMcAeroFace]

Air curtains are a relatively new thing, used by many manufacturers now. Not mentioned in version two of the seemingly all knowing Hucho book, not mentioned from what I remember of version four either.

The point is though that modern cars all use compromises, like air curtains over wheel covers or spoilers over tapering to a point. If you want to modify your car, you need to make similar compromises, you probably can't remake your car to look like some "optimal" shape, you work with what you have.

Why are new innovations and new ways of reducing drag not celebrated?

Seemingly every post goes like this: "I added a diffuser and undertray and got a 10% drag reduction" and aerohead replies "too much pressure drag, to solve this just remake the entire car into a different shape from the 1920s". And then the post never gets back on topic

[freebeard]

Why are new innovations and new ways of reducing drag not celebrated?

Purple plasma actuators.