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Old 04-17-2009, 01:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Red face Magnetic engine returns

I've missed this place, even the sarcasm and the bullies. There are mostly smart people here who have figured out that I'm not scamming anyone, and some of you have kept in touch. So here is a bit of an update for anyone who cares.

The #4 prototype I was working on worked, as did all of the earlier models. That isn't sufficient. Just having an "engine" that turns round and round but produces no real power is kind of useless as anything other than a brag. The first protos put out almost as much power as Crookes Radiometer, and with almost as much use. Nice proof-of-concept, otherwise useless. They're described in my journals, but the hardware has been salvaged for further use.

After a lot of discussion of the situation with my partner, I think we finally have some grip on the problems of attaining useful power levels, and I'm proceeding to build a new version that will be able to do more than just sit there going round and round looking cool. I hope.

The website is giving me a bit of help with the funds to buy parts and pay for machining (thank God for people with foresight and the willingness to help), but it's still mostly on my own resource. I don't resent that, nor do I expect a lot of input from people who aren't willing to gamble just on my sayso.

Interestingly, the only ones willing to put serious money into the project are those who expect some ownership as a result, and that can't happen, based on our corporate charter. When we have a fully functional device, the details will be released under an open source contract .. no patents.

When that happens, anyone who wants to build one to learn or improve on it will be free to obtain the plans at duplication and shipping cost only. Probably under 10 bucks (a CD and postage don't cost much). And once you've checked it out, I think our Legal Eagles will have some kind of Associate plan for you if you want to market the licenses.

For now, I'll only say anything about progress when there is more. Michael and I are working frantically to produce a real, useful, reasonably powerful engine. Grass-cutting time approaches, and I hate the sound of gasoline lawn mowers! I do welcome any input especially about ideas for a good strong clutch system!

Until progress happens...
God Bless us all and grant us prosperity
Bill Whedon

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Old 04-17-2009, 04:08 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Are you willing to run your prototype to failure (as a scientific exercise) and report how long it ran and estimate the torque and rpm over the course of the run (again as a scientific exercise)? Or is this a faith based exercise?
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Running a failing device to failure??

Hi, DCB! I don't have a running model at the moment, anymore, but yes, indeed, when I get a proto worthy of the name going ( one that produces significant power output), testing to failure will certainly be part of the protocol.

The present design is to run at around 2000 RPM at a pulsed torque value of 160 inch-lbs, which works out to something around 1.25HP given a 25% pulse duty cycle. Enough to run a reasonable lawn mower, I think.

I'll be clutching the engine to the blade with a magnetic clutch, and the drive shaft will be plain old 5/8" CR. I'm being frugal, as 5/8" SS is way expensive. The mag clutch is non-contact with the blade drive running inside a helical spring so if anything dead-stops the blade suddenly, it won't just automatically self-destruct the engine as has happened in the past. That's a Really Bad Thing to have happen. I was mowing a field with a Ford tractor running a 48" brush mower once, and ran into a (believe it or not) buried engine block that had somehow "floated up" in the clay/aggregate soil. Stopped the Ford cold and sheared a key in the mower, but fortunately did no major damage to anything but my temper, with me grousing about idiots who would bury something like that! Not as bad as running over a discarded roll of electric fence wire and having to untangle a half-mile or so, but bad enough!

Actually, a 1.25 HP motor is way enough to run a motorbike, but I need a mower more, and don't want to be designing bike drives until my grass is cut! LOL

So you know, the plan is to run against a dynamometer at about 50% output, fully instrumented so we can observe both low and high vibration frequencies and record same to the compy. As much time and effort as this critter has been, it'd be just plain stupid of me to not test absolutely everything to the limits of our instrumentation.

We are using good, precision, heavy-duty components, so we don't anticipate it will be easy to shut it down under normal loads. But things do have a way of proving Murphy. I guess we'll see!

Before I go, I want to ask you, particularly, whether you found the text description of "how it works" at all enlightening. I tried to write to make Michael happy, but I tend to be more verbally visual, according to him, and he didn't like it. However, from your earlier correspondence, I "got" that you would be able to decipher it. If you need anything at all clarified, please feel free to write me directly and I'll do my best to cast light on whatever you need!

All the best, thanks for the great question!
God Bless and guide us all, and let's hope for a "petroleum-free" future!
Bill Whedon
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Old 04-17-2009, 10:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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One of the main problems I've heard is that the motor itself is a giant degauss-er that even the strongest magnets are not immune to.

That is why I think it important to first and foremost run one into the ground and see why it stops working before building a bigger one.

It may very well be that any energy output you see is from the magnets losing their potential.

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/...nt_keep_rating
"...says he saw the Perendev motor running, and that his group has built two different working magnetic motor designs, including one that is analogous to the Perendev, but that they all depleted their magnets under load...

the energy consumed in the overall manufacturing process is 20-25 times the energy you will get out.
"
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Old 04-18-2009, 01:59 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Perendev and degaussing

An astute observation, but there are a couple of problems. First, I built a dupe Perendev early on in my experimentation, and sure enough, they fail predictably. However, they don't fail due to depleting the magnetism, but due to the same innate design flaw shared with almost all the engine plans you'll find on the web. They do not account for magnetic lock and do nothing useful to prevent it.

The driving (stator) magnets must physically move away from the possibilities for lock, or it will inevitably occur. There are numerous ways to accomplish this, what I used was a simple cam-and-follower to physically shove the stator magnets out of the way. It does eat power, which is shown clearly in the problem I'm facing now of attaining enough power to do useful things. But it can be overcome.

Using NdFeB (Neodymium Iron Boron) magnets, you'll never "consume all the power". Magnetism is not a "charge-and-discharge-cycle" phenomenon except in simple magnetic materials like iron. Here's an example of how you can prove that:
Use a rare-earth magnet to stick your kids' drawing to the refrigerator.
Set up a nice easy chair and a box of KFC and wait for the drawing to fall off.

Ain't gonna happen, no matter how long you wait.

Where did the magnetism come from?
Why doesn't it discharge into the large refrigerator mass?

If you overheat a neodymium magnet above about 175F, it will lose its magnetism. But with samarium-cobalt, that critical temperature is 570F.

I'm not going to get all mysterious, but well, maybe a bit. What I think is that magnetism is only intuitively like gravity, but the analogy is flawed. There is, to my knowledge, no gravitational phenomenon that will hold little Jane's or Bobby's picture to a vertical face of the fridge. The reality seems to me a lot more like a quantum phenomenon akin to the attraction and orbits of the atomic particles. Those run, spinning in their little orbits, pretty much forever, and I believe that, given the proper materials for manufacture of the magnets, they will hold the stuff to the fridge pretty much forever, too.

Being honest, this sort of discussion is outside the scope of my real knowledge, so that last paragraph is my own speculation. I can offer up no mathematical proofs .. it just seems reasonable to me to think of magnetism as a quantum phenomenon rather than a gross one.

If you know someone who can "channel" Nikola Tesla, I'd love to have a lengthy chat with him! Also Einstein!

Meanwhile, I think most of us will have to just work "in the large" making use of observable, repeatable phenomena, to design and build our engines!

You're a good analytical thinker. Your notions are solicited.

All the best, God Bless us and make us all smarter! LOL
Bill Whedon
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Old 04-18-2009, 08:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillWhedon View Post
Why doesn't it discharge into the large refrigerator mass?
Because the refrigerator is acting as a giant "keeper bar", not as a degauss-er alternating magnetic field. No magnet is immune to sufficient degaussing. Certainly it is the most reasonable explanation as to where the energy to keep one of these things turning comes from (has to come from somewhere).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillWhedon View Post
Magnetism is not a "charge-and-discharge-cycle"
Tell that to every one and zero on every single hard drive

So now I'm confused though. You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillWhedon View Post
I guess it'll run pretty much forever...
But isn't there a bit of you that is curious to see if you can get more energy out of your prototype then it took to make it? Why not take that bucket of KFC and watch that run? lot more interesting than a fridge magnet IMHO.
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Old 04-18-2009, 12:47 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillWhedon View Post

Interestingly, the only ones willing to put serious money into the project are those who expect some ownership as a result, and that can't happen, based on our corporate charter. When we have a fully functional device, the details will be released under an open source contract .. no patents.

When that happens, anyone who wants to build one to learn or improve on it will be free to obtain the plans at duplication and shipping cost only. Probably under 10 bucks (a CD and postage don't cost much). And once you've checked it out, I think our Legal Eagles will have some kind of Associate plan for you if you want to market the licenses.
Open Source Contract is an interesting concept. It implies that behind it is an open source license. I.e. an addendum or addition to the open source license. Will you have an open source license and if so which one? If you will not have an open source license then you are misleading when you say Open Source Contract. The term itself is an oxymoron or at least contradicts the well established intellectual property rights brought about through the Berne Convention and World Trade Organization concerning open source licensing and contracts.

Why not simply publish your contract for examination by the open community or at least change the name from 'Open Source Contract' to 'Contract' so that there is no confusion on anyone's part.

Also, your web site can easily make your plans available for download, thereby eliminating any work on your part for providing a copy of the plans, allowing the public access to the plans instantly instead of waiting a week and is won't cost $10....it will be free as 'open source' implies.

This is indeed an interesting project, one worth pursuing, I would simply like a little clarification on the above couple of points.

Thanks,

Eric
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Old 04-18-2009, 06:26 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Bill,
thanks for the clarification on this thread regarding your motor. I think the reason for the argument last time was sparked by two things;
-your claim but inability to share specifics
-our stubbornness in Physics understanding

Glad things are more civil this time on both fronts.

I think DCB's argument is that any magnet, even the NdFeB type, has the potential to become demagnetized.
The other is that it takes energy to make these magnets in the first place. As you know, magnetism is caused by "wobbly" orbits of electrons in a few elements and makes each atom polar. Groups of aligned atoms of these elements are called magnetic domains. To take these materials and make a magnet, the domains must be unfixed, placed in a powerful magnetic field, and then allowed to fix themselves in place. You have to input energy into an electromagnet to generate this field; you must input thermal E to allow the domains to become unfixed.

If your engines work, there is energy coming from somewhere (I'm admitting our stubbornness in clinging to laws of thermodynamics here) and the likely place is that stored energy in the process of forming the magnets; your engines must have somehow created a function that, as magnets are degaussed, the energy stored in their field as it is destroyed do usable work.
I too would love to see an engine run to death, and see how much E came from it.
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Old 04-19-2009, 01:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Refrigerator magnets and curiosity

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcb View Post
Because the refrigerator is acting as a giant "keeper bar", not as a degauss-er alternating magnetic field. No magnet is immune to sufficient degaussing. Certainly it is the most reasonable explanation as to where the energy to keep one of these things turning comes from (has to come from somewhere).


Tell that to every one and zero on every single hard drive

So now I'm confused though. You said:

But isn't there a bit of you that is curious to see if you can get more energy out of your prototype then it took to make it? Why not take that bucket of KFC and watch that run? lot more interesting than a fridge magnet IMHO.
Hmmm... Given that I have no idea exactly what amount of energy went into the making of my 80-lb magnets, either individually or collectively, I don't have a good answer. All I can do is measure the torque that can be measurably produced by one of them shoving another one on a circular path. And yeah, I am definitely curious, and proceeding toward satisfying that curiosity at deliberate speed. As you're aware, my financial resources are small and intermittent, so now I'm waiting to get the funds together to build the new pressor arms, and to machine the new flywheel with the camming channel, so I can get the new goody running. I just have to be patient, which sucks.

I do hope that someone with a good understanding of quantum physics will please examine my updates and opinions along those lines. I'd lofe to know whether I'm on the right track with it!

On another but related line, I have never (read "NEVER") seen a rare-earth magnet become demagnetized by proximity to another, nor by any phenomenon short of being exposed to high temperatures. That, in and of itself, is to me sufficient to cling to my "quantum" concept until someone finds a proof one way or the other. I'm not married to the idea, but I do believe that so far, it's the best bride in the church!

And nope, I'm not arguing with anyone.
Also, as to the desired "open source contract" stuff, I'm no lawyer, I'm just a user of open source software who admires the concept. When the "legal eagle" in my gang provides us with something arguably useful along those lines, I'll be happy to share it. In my opinion, the OS license isn't really protecting the IP, just the end result of the use of it. But again, I'm no attorney, and I don't play one on TV.

Getting really close to lawn-mower time, so I hope xomebody cuts loose with some funds for my last half-dozen or so magnets. Otherwize, I'm stuck again with the old Poulan rider! :P

All the best, and let's make this freakin' stuff work!

Cheers, God Bless,
Bill Whedon
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Old 04-19-2009, 01:48 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillWhedon View Post
...

On another but related line, I have never (read "NEVER") seen a rare-earth magnet become demagnetized by proximity to another, nor by any phenomenon short of being exposed to high temperatures. That, in and of itself, is to me sufficient to cling to my "quantum" concept until someone finds a proof one way or the other. I'm not married to the idea, but I do believe that so far, it's the best bride in the church!

...
Could you make the argument that a massive amount of energy went into making the rare-earth magnet (plate tectonics), and that you are just making use of it?

CarloSW2

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