Making money, and being morally correct.

[Christ]

Recently, I've gotten into the world of making money by buying broken cars, fixing, and selling them. I don't get into body work or total loss situations at all, I only buy the ones that I can fix very quickly or easily, and will pass inspections with no problems when I'm done.

I don't buy anything older than '95, except specific vehicles, and if I have requests for something.

There is a question in this... just wait for it.

I just bought this tool tonite (about 5 mins before posting this) to help me in diagnosing problems that might be a cheaper fix than replacing engines and such, which is what I normally do if there is engine damage, etc. (Replace it rather than repair it, it's usually cheaper and faster than diagnosing and fixing.) *I DID NOT pay $600 for the kit... it was closer to the price of a SG2 for me.*

Now - that leads into a question:

Would I be morally out-of-bounds to make small FE improvements to the vehicles and sell them without saying anything about it?

What types of mods could I make that wouldn't REQUIRE that the driver know about it?

There have to be things that could be done to make sure that they're going to get better gas mileage with the vehicle... but every time I've touted gas mileage of something, people tend to delve into the "that's impossible" range of thought. They want to discuss how something doesn't work, and refuse to understand how it does.

I want to as much as I can to help the FE situation for as many people as I can, but is it morally correct to make said modifications without letting anyone know?

[Ryland]

If what you are selling is in sound condition and works better then designed then I would point that out to people, maybe get a scangauge so they can tell for them selves what the real time mileage is on the test drive, buy some of them in bulk and sell them with the car too?

[Christ]

We're only talking about a $500 or so price margin here, by the time all is said and done. I don't work on retail prices, I just consider what I paid for it, what I have into it in time and parts, and then figure a price for it.

Adding a SG to the deal would probably confuse the average person I'm selling the car to, as most of them are either only starting to be concerned with FE, or aren't concerned at all, and just need a newer car than they have currently, or something more reliable... or maybe just a replacement for some other reason.

I've really thought this out, and it could play in many scenarios, but I'd love to do it without troubling myself further... I'm just looking for ideas of things that can be done that aren't going to affect the driveability of the car, or make it any less safe if the driver doesn't know about it.

Things like adjusting the brakes properly, so that they don't rub, or using lighter parts to replace broken OEM ones, if available, etc.

I just don't really have the time to sit down and debate things with people... as a result, I don't debate prices either. I ask what I ask, and it's not flexible. I make cash sales, and guarantee the car for 60 days. If something fails, and it's not obviously b/c the driver is an idiot, I'll fix it free, parts and labor.

Lots of times, there are other parts from other model-line cars that are/should be more efficient to use, like lighter or more aero wheels...

Would it be wrong to change tire sizes if I could recalibrate the speedo to compensate? (I think yes, b/c most places put on tires based on the sticker on the car, so they'd end up going faster than the speedo says, and it could land them a speeding ticket - bad juju)

So what types of things can I do that don't require extensive work, and won't affect the vehicle's feel or reliability?

[blueflame]

Honesty is the morally correct thing to do.

I would not try to impose a moral highground and ecomodder theology... but rather give buyers an OPTION to save money on fuel, and provide them with a photocopied page of info with links...

Second hand car dealing is fraught with moral dilemmas.... beast not to go there me thinks.

If a clutch cable shows little life left on a friction plate would you mention it? Seepage around a crank seal?

Parting out vehicles is far more karmic friendly, and possibly more profitable me thinks!

[metroschultz]

I do the exact same thing.
Buy--Fix--Sell
I do what I can to improve the product without changing anything that would require special knowledge down the road.
All with my eye on the bottom line.
You cannot put $1000 worth of upgrade in a car and sell it fro $1000 and make any money.
I have been covering the front bottom of the cars with coroplast. This is usually just an extension of the original undertray anyway. I had one complaint with this particular item.
The buyer went to JiffyLube some months after the purchase and they reamed him for having a belly pan under the oil pan.
I am not sure what happened at the time but he called me and asked if I had put something under the car that it didn't come with.
I explained I had, and he could remove it if he so desired or he could bring it to me and I would remove it.
I have since started telling people all that I have done in an effort to improve the mileage.
Since I drive all my cars for two weeks (or more) before putting them on the block, I tell them That I have driven the car for a while, and there is no problem with the mods I have made. If they chose to not have them I will remove them, or restore the car to OEM.
I believe that since we have the knowledge to make these cars a little more efficient than they were when we got them, We are obligated to do so. Unless the future owner chooses against it.
I am not above removing something I put on in an effort to make a sale.
In the For What It's Worth column,
That same customer contacted me a few weeks ago. He needs a car for his daughter, and the one I sold him last year is still running strong with no issues. He doesn't go back to JiffyLube any more.

[Matt Herring]

I think you have to let people know any mods you've made to the car in an effort to cover yourself from a liability standpoint (not to mention dealing with post-sale questions that may arise). While the mods you are making are most likely aero-mods to improve MPG...imagine a buyer has an accident with the car he bought from you and the insurance company rules his insurance policy null due to a modded vehicle (that may or may have not caused the accident...it's not a stretch for this scenario to play out).

Anytime there is money (and/or liability) involved...always cover your back side. I'm sure it's probably a fine line between making a profit on the car and disclosure to the buyer...but it's not worth a few hundred bucks to risk it (IMO).

[hummingbird]

Some guys are smart - they make a talking point of a necessity and get not only business, but free publicity in the bargain... I think that is the way to go... Requires a bit of shameless self promotion, but I think you would be able to manage, considering it is good for them too...

There should be this air around... "cars from this guy just need a whiff of gas to go..." "I dunno what he does to his vehicles, but I would rather drive a wreck from him than a new vehicle - It saves me half my monthly payment on the car..." "If it is from Christ's I would get by with half what I now pay for gas..."

Then you could openly say what you do to the vehicles, and guys would not just believe but flock to you, for the mods, and maybe would be ready to pay a premium (however small) for it too...

[90metro]

I've purchased, rehabbed and sold only one Geo Metro since "I got into the game" last year, and I left the car better than I found it. Fortunately it was mechanically sound and only needed cleaned, ironed and pressed. And I think I only profited $200 or so, which was what my time and labor added up to. But last summer I purchased a 1992 Geo Metro automatic with air for $200. It has over 220k miles and leaks oil but drives really well. It had a rusted out control arm stand which I had rewelded, because I really wanted to see this car on the road. I then saw on Craigslist somebody selling a 1994 4-door Metro for $1800. The picture looked really nice on the internet so I drove to take a look. The car drove nice and looked good inside and out......until I climbed under the car. Man, what a rust bucket! On top of all that, the front left control arm/stand had rivets and u-joints holding it together!! If I would have tried to drive it home...one pothole and I'm a goner! Anyway, I felt sorry for the guy because it was sold to him in that condition by a "friend." He sold it to me for $400 for parts. Shoot, the tires were new 155s and it had a new Jensen CD player with Ipod hookup.....that alone was worth the cost. Once I'm done stripping it down I'll scrap the rest. I'm also transferring the engine (which only has 80k miles) into the aforementioned 1992.

Bottom line: If you're leaving something better than you found it, God bless you. But if somebody resorts to duct taping the control arm stand just to sell it to some poor sap who doesn't know any better, there's a table reserved for them in Cafe Hell !!

[cfg83]

Christ -

I agree with the honesty policy. If a person wants the car but doesn't want the mpg-mod, then you can let the market decide. If the car sits too long, reverse the mod, and call back the person that wasn't willing to pay for the extra MPG. If it's a complicated mod, you can document how to undo the mod.

I think that keeping a good car on the road is "recycling", so that's already an ethical act. Even though your choice of car may be limited due to the one that needs the fewest repairs, selecting good MPG vehicles is also a way to improve MPG.

The bigger(?) tire + speedo mod sounds cool. If gas prices rise as is currently being predicted, you're business strategy will become fashionable again. Here is one dude named fistopher who was doing serious MPG mods during the recent high gas price era :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...1-vx-4000.html

CarloSW2

[Christ]

cfg83 - Thanks for that link. It was helpful!

Everyone- I've put a lot of thought into this, because I try to be as honest as I can, even to the extent that something won't sell b/c I "tell all".

I honestly don't hold anything back, because in most cases, the money I've put into the car can be re-acquired through parting it out. "Parting a car" is something I don't like to do, because there is A LOT of waste generated by doing it. Every part that doesn't sell ends up in either a landfill or a junkyard, and eventually is crushed/scrapped/recycled... which costs more in the long run than just keeping it on the road. Why "recycle" something, when the cost of recycling it is more than the cost of sustaining it?

I believe that in today's world, MPG is a sure fire thought-provoker, at the very least. It may not get you the sale every time, but it might get something thinking... and that may lead them to doing things just that little bit differently. If even that is the outcome of a meeting with a potential client, I've still managed a small bit of "Win".

I do, however, believe in Karma, and the ripple-effect. I believe that what I do today impacts the lives of millions tomorrow. I believe that bad things are heavier than good on a scale, and it takes more good to outweigh less bad.

Based on these beliefs, and help from the moral side of EcoModder, I've decided that I will offer "free, or at cost, upgrades" (see explanation) with the cars/vehicles I sell. I will upgrade things like belly pans, install aero components where applicable, etc... at the consumer's request.

\Upgrades - I won't charge you for the labor to install it, the cost of materials may or may not be added to the vehicle's price, and all additions are still covered under the existing warranty. Upgrades may be taken or removed at any time during the warranty period free of labor charges. Upgrades installed before sale will not affect final price. Upgrades requested after sale will require purchase price of materials only, at my cost, installation will be free of charge to customers.\

The speedo mod works out, except that speedo's don't calibrate themselves... so I'd still have to inform the person of the mod so that they could make sure to get the proper tire size (corrected for calibration) installed, when they needed new tires.

Things such as trimming mudflaps, removing non-aero trim enhancements, etc.. can now be requested by the customer, with a list of "approved" mods being maintained in my shop, that they may look through, choosing those which appeal most to them.

It's like a trim level upgrade at the dealer now. It's not a "mod"... it's an "UPGRADE!". We all love those, right?

(Semantics are fun... LOL)