MG Midget + Geo Metro 3cyl = MGeo

[93hatchDX]

Speaking of kit cars, is there a kit car out there with low-CD/High FE in mind?

[freebeard]

There's any number of them; a low frontal area kit that [lets/requires] you [to] pick your own drivetrain with reasonable aero; i.e., Sterling/Nova, & etc.

There's proprietary commercial kits. For example the Smythe Performance TDI middy

Then there's the reverse trikes, notably the XR-3 from Robert Q. Riley.

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by 93hatchDX

Speaking of kit cars, is there a kit car out there with low-CD/High FE in mind?

No not in my perspective. But this opinion will vary depending on what you think is low cd and high fuel economy. Another point is what you consider a kit car to be. For me I would consider a kit car a vehicle you purchase all the components for ie. Body kit, doors, glass, engine, suspension, chassis etc than bolt it together with little fabrication involved. You will not find this in a low CD high fuel economy car. What you will find is a lot of do it yourself plans on how to build the specific car such as the RQ Riley XR3. There is much fabrication involved as well as constructing your own fiberglass composite body shells! RQ Riley has been talking for years now that he is considering taking molds and offering body kits. This has not happened yet and probably won't ever!

All of his other plans books are outdated and no where near the detail of the XR3 plans which are very well done I must say. I can say this cuz I have them all literally! I can also say that his Urba Centurion plans is where I got the idea to start building my diesel electric kitcar TIGON. I use the same Triumph Spitfire/GT6 chassis as the Urba Centurion but that is pretty much all that it will have in common by the time its all completed.

Low coefficient of drag I would consider is under .2. The closest production car that you can get to this number is the Honda Insight Gen 1. The problem with this is legally you can not take out the engine and replace it with something else. However there are people who have done engine swaps and even put a VW Lupo 1.2L TDI in it. There fuel economy was over 100mpg I believe. Anytime you majorly alter a post OBD engine car such as with an engine swap you are risking fines or worse.

Fuel economy I would consider high is above 100mpg. While freebeard pointed out a cool vehicle I would consider a true kitcar in the Smythe TDI its cd is nothing spectacular nor is the fuel economy. You will not get over 100mpg in that tdi kitcar. It is cool to look at though and he did a good job on it.

So again to answer your question in my opinion no there really is not a kitcar out there that has good CD and high fuel economy in mind. If there was most likely I would not be designing and building my own cuz it takes tons of time and tons of money LOL

GH.

[freebeard]

The problem with this is legally you can not take out the engine and replace it with something else. However there are people who have done engine swaps and even put a VW Lupo 1.2L TDI in it. There fuel economy was over 100mpg I believe. Anytime you majorly alter a post OBD engine car such as with an engine swap you are risking fines or worse.

Worse? Labeled a terrorist, I guess.

The times are changing in other ways too. Consider Local Motors — crowd-sourced kit cars.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

The problem with this is legally you can not take out the engine and replace it with something else. However there are people who have done engine swaps and even put a VW Lupo 1.2L TDI in it. There fuel economy was over 100mpg I believe. Anytime you majorly alter a post OBD engine car such as with an engine swap you are risking fines or worse.

No, you aren't. There are guidelines to follow, and you can legally 'remanufacture' an engine/chassis combination as well, as long as you have basis to know that the emission of the new combination will not be worse than the emissions of the combination you started with.

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production...ngswitch_0.pdf

^Engine switching fact sheet from EPA, cites relevant laws and paperwork.

Basically, you wouldn't be able to put a diesel engine into a Honda Insight in the US because they weren't certified with diesels in them here. However, there are legal ways to get around that, as well.

I'm not sure why people have this idea that it's illegal to change engines in US cars for other engines.. they only require that the combination created have the same or better emissions specs than the combination you started with, or be a previously certified combination under EPA certifications procedures.

[freebeard]

Years ago, when someone was *suing* General Motors for putting Oldsmobile engines in new Chevies, Hot Rod magazine ran an article titled "A nation like this should be sent to bed without dinner".

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by Christ

^Engine switching fact sheet from EPA, cites relevant laws and paperwork.

States can (and often do!) have different requirements than the EPA.

In CA, you cannot legally swap an older engine into a newer car. It used to be that you could do that as long as you had all of the emissions equipment (with a broad definition of that!) from the chassis. Even earlier, you could do that and use the emissions equipment only from the engine. But they changed the rules to say you simply cannot do it now.

You cannot swap truck engines into cars, nor vice-versa.

You can swap a newer engine into an older car, but you must have all of the emissions equipment that came on the US-spec car the engine is out of. (So in theory, all of the B16-swapped Civics in CA are using Del Sol VTEC engines, including intake, exhaust, ECU, and so on.)

The regulations can be a real hassle to untangle, which I suspect is a major reason that there are so many registered cars that would technically be illegal if one followed the letter of the law.

-soD

[GreenHornet]

Originally Posted by Christ

No, you aren't. There are guidelines to follow, and you can legally 'remanufacture' an engine/chassis combination as well, as long as you have basis to know that the emission of the new combination will not be worse than the emissions of the combination you started with.

http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production...ngswitch_0.pdf

^Engine switching fact sheet from EPA, cites relevant laws and paperwork.

Basically, you wouldn't be able to put a diesel engine into a Honda Insight in the US because they weren't certified with diesels in them here. However, there are legal ways to get around that, as well.

I'm not sure why people have this idea that it's illegal to change engines in US cars for other engines.. they only require that the combination created have the same or better emissions specs than the combination you started with, or be a previously certified combination under EPA certifications procedures.

Yes this is true actually it can be done as experimental as there are accounts of people swapping in VW 1.2 and VW 1.4 TDI engines as well as the .8L Smart engines. If the engine was offered here in the states on another vehicle it makes things a lot easier. However if in the case for the Smart fortwo diesel things become a bit tougher but can still be done!

The problem with the Smart Diesel is that you would need a donor car and not just simply the engine to make it work into anything You could not swap a different transmission into it as the ECU controls it along with the sensor. The car would not drive without all of the sensors and equipment. Then there is the high cost of the diesel parts fro it This deterred me from using it in my original plans.

There are loopholes in everything but the cost and red tape involved often are not worth it.

[GreenHornet]

"In CA, you cannot legally swap an older engine into a newer car. It used to be that you could do that as long as you had all of the emissions equipment (with a broad definition of that!) from the chassis. Even earlier, you could do that and use the emissions equipment only from the engine. But they changed the rules to say you simply cannot do it now."

The laws in California are the same as Oregon and pretty much every where else on this and that is if you have a car older than 1975 you are exempt! In other words it does not matter where you live in California if you have a car or kit car that is older than 1975 you can put whatever engine you like in it! You could also build a Trike kit car and put whatever you want into it since 3 wheels is considered a motorcycle and is also exempt! All the worries of an engine swap can be eliminated with the right initial vehicle choice! Any diesel vehicle prior to 1977 is exempt also..

Here is the link to the vehicles that are California exempt!

Link = California Smog Checks - Emissions Regulations, CA Smog Testing Stations at DMV.org: The DMV Made Simple

GH

[nimblemotors]

1. Your apology is not accepted.
2. You are wrong.
3. A Geo Metro is ugly, a MG Midget is a sports car.

Originally Posted by aerohead

First an apology for finding your thread so late.And for not reading the entire thread.
The drag coefficient for the MG is on the order of twice that of the Metro,and even with its smaller frontal area and light weight it will have a higher overall road load horsepower demand than the Metro at highway speed.
You're looking at major streamlining just to catch back up to the Metro.Which would entail a very streamlined roof.
And I don't think your windshield will make it.A-pillars and header are the issue.Just not enough radius.Leaning the windshield might help with the header issue,but you'd have to narrow the glass to allow for the A-pillars otherwise the roof would be wider than the car's body.
I'd consider losing the windshield altogether,do a hard tonneau for the passenger side and try 'n locate a windshield from a Corbin Sparrow and do a 'solo' roof just wide enough for you as we've seen on one of the Metro mod projects or Bug Wing Beetle.
If anyone has already mentioned these things,I apologize for the redundancy.