Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Aerodynamics
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-24-2019, 12:12 PM   #61 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 15,251
Thanks: 3,858
Thanked 5,082 Times in 4,047 Posts
Expand the thinking from the wheel to the wheel/suspension/axle subsystem:


https://press.zf.com/press/en/media/media_2144.html

__________________
.
Freedom, oh freedom, freedom over me
I hate to tell you, mister, but only dead men are free
Murder Most Foul

_________________
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to freebeard For This Useful Post:
aerohead (08-24-2019)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #62 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
aerohead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sanger,Texas,U.S.A.
Posts: 10,856
Thanks: 17,144
Thanked 5,810 Times in 3,502 Posts
hub motors

I'll take a stab. There might be an overall advantage,minimizing un-sprung weight,by moving the mass of the motor(s) inboard.
The hub-motor would make for a rather large pendulum,with increased stresses imparted to all the suspension components,plus chassis attachment hard-points,requiring more massive parts and adding to overall weight,all mitigated if this mass is re-directed inboard.
Oilpan4's comment about a wash-boarded road evokes visions of a torture chamber for bushings,springs, dampeners,and chassis.
I tore a shock tower off my VW bus on the Kananaskis Trail in Canada.
__________________
Photobucket album: http://s1271.photobucket.com/albums/jj622/aerohead2/
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 03:53 AM   #63 (permalink)
In the fasting lane
 
RedDevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Nieuwegein, the Netherlands
Posts: 3,645

Red Devil - '11 Honda Insight Elegance
Team Honda
90 day: 51.36 mpg (US)

It - '09 Hyundai I10 Active Cool
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.58 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,456
Thanked 1,987 Times in 1,273 Posts
Still I think the problems with hub motors for cars are basically teething problems and once they go into small scale production those will be largely sorted out.

There's lighter magnets and better ways of managing the fields coming these days, so they should be substantially lighter. Doing away with the drive shaft and needing smaller brakes, if at all, also helps. That should reduce the weight issue.

Then the Lightyear team chose relatively small hub motors. 10 seconds to 62 mph is not Tesla territory though adequate for everyday use.
If they can get the motors warranted by their supplier to do the miles then the supplier has a strong incentive to get the hub motors to last. The advantages are immense. Someone needs to sort out the bugs, but then the sky is the limit.
__________________
2011 Honda Insight + HID, LEDs, tiny PV panel, extra brake pad return springs, neutral wheel alignment, 44/42 PSI (air), PHEV light (inop), tightened wheel nut.
lifetime FE over 0.16 Gmeter or 0.1 Mmile.



Most people are in the longest queue.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RedDevil For This Useful Post:
aerohead (08-28-2019)
Old 08-25-2019, 12:01 PM   #64 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 15,251
Thanks: 3,858
Thanked 5,082 Times in 4,047 Posts
Putting the motor on a swing-arm allows for a gearing reduction and reduced the unsprung weight. The downside is that it doesn't fit inside the wheel, although it's not as bad as a central motor with driveshafts.
__________________
.
Freedom, oh freedom, freedom over me
I hate to tell you, mister, but only dead men are free
Murder Most Foul

_________________
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to freebeard For This Useful Post:
Xist (08-25-2019)
Old 08-25-2019, 12:56 PM   #65 (permalink)
Not Doug
 
Xist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Show Low, AZ
Posts: 8,977

Chorizo - '00 Honda Civic HX, baby! :D
90 day: 35.35 mpg (US)

Mid-Life Crisis Fighter - '99 Honda Accord LX
90 day: 35.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 6,059
Thanked 1,717 Times in 1,294 Posts
Has anyone made a car, even a prototype, with the motors on swing arms?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 01:02 PM   #66 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,372

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 2,745 Times in 2,149 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Expand the thinking from the wheel to the wheel/suspension/axle subsystem:


https://press.zf.com/press/en/media/media_2144.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Putting the motor on a swing-arm allows for a gearing reduction and reduced the unsprung weight. The downside is that it doesn't fit inside the wheel, although it's not as bad as a central motor with driveshafts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
I'll take a stab. There might be an overall advantage,minimizing un-sprung weight,by moving the mass of the motor(s) inboard.
The hub-motor would make for a rather large pendulum,with increased stresses imparted to all the suspension components,plus chassis attachment hard-points,requiring more massive parts and adding to overall weight,all mitigated if this mass is re-directed inboard.
Oilpan4's comment about a wash-boarded road evokes visions of a torture chamber for bushings,springs, dampeners,and chassis.
I tore a shock tower off my VW bus on the Kananaskis Trail in Canada.
Good old circular reasoning.
Then it's not a hub motor.
At that point you might as well use a smaller, higher speed more and a gear box exactly like my Nissan leaf, or 2 or 4 of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
Still I think the problems with hub motors for cars are basically teething problems and once they go into small scale production those will be largely sorted out.

There's lighter magnets and better ways of managing the fields coming these days, so they should be substantially lighter. Doing away with the drive shaft and needing smaller brakes, if at all, also helps. That should reduce the weight issue.

Then the Lightyear team chose relatively small hub motors. 10 seconds to 62 mph is not Tesla territory though adequate for everyday use.
If they can get the motors warranted by their supplier to do the miles then the supplier has a strong incentive to get the hub motors to last. The advantages are immense. Someone needs to sort out the bugs, but then the sky is the limit.
They are already mass produced.
All the major car manufacturers that are electric vehicle early producers have had a crack at hub motor and gave up on them.
I think the only ones that didn't go on about hub motors was tesla.

Oh and I timed my 0 to 60 times on my leaf with my tool bag, cords, evse, spare tire, jack, tire iron, 17ah 30cal ammo can LiFePO4 battery was about 10 seconds.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.

Last edited by oil pan 4; 08-25-2019 at 04:31 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 02:31 PM   #67 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 15,251
Thanks: 3,858
Thanked 5,082 Times in 4,047 Posts
Possibly combining the hub motor with a Tweel™ would be fruitful.
__________________
.
Freedom, oh freedom, freedom over me
I hate to tell you, mister, but only dead men are free
Murder Most Foul

_________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 03:15 PM   #68 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 823
Thanks: 41
Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by teknomage2012 View Post
NOPE
There are things in life more important than just money and ROI. Like the ability of my grandchildren to breath in a world not fighting over centralized oil resources!

Bean counters make me sick!
"Bean counters" may make you sick, but the fact remains that the world runs on beans. You can make believe this is not the case and perhaps you have, through fortune and or hard work, gotten to a place where you no longer need to count them. But the vast majority of the planet isn't there. We we continue to count them.

So, I think I speak for most of my fellow bean counters when I say kiss my beans.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I really like that thing. I think that putting the motors at the wheels is the way to go. It does increase unsprung weight and that is a concern, particularly in high performance vehicles.

Where I do have a problem is with the fact that this vehicle makes no economic sense. It will not be available to the masses, so it doesn't solve a damn thing. It is a play toy for the rich, especially those that want to point out to the bean counting masses, that they are doing something to save our grandchildren.

No, you arent.

My guess is that a vehicle with 80% of this one's capability can be built for 40% of the cost. THIS is what will put a dent in our resource use.

Use more aluminum and plastic and a little less CF. Or figure out a way to build with CF economically.

I thought Edison 2 was going to be the company to deliver this. Not sure what happened. Perhaps those that don't want it built jammed enough beans up his ass to make him go away.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 04:08 PM   #69 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 823
Thanks: 41
Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
No one is going to care how efficient the light year ones are if they (the hub motors) only last 20,000 miles at speeds above 20mph.
Lets assume they need rebuilds at 20K miles.

Assuming they are easy to remove, and I don't see why this is not the case, and they can be rebuilt economically, maybe that would be part of the equation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2019, 04:36 PM   #70 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,372

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 124.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 2,745 Times in 2,149 Posts
A lot of shops are charging 50 to 100 dollars per hour.
The minimum shop time for something like that will be at least 2 hours per wheel, possibly up to 3 or 4 hours per wheel.
Meanwhile the only maintenance my leaf drive system has had was tires at 60,000 an oil change at 70,000 miles, even then the oil change isn't recommended for 2011.
By 2015 and up they recommend 110,000 miles.

__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.

Last edited by oil pan 4; 08-25-2019 at 04:44 PM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
Xist (08-26-2019)
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com