Natural Gas Cars

[UFO]

I'd prefer to leave the "fracking" stuff behind. Until that process is cleaned up, no way am I taking part in consuming more "natural" gas. Methane from renewables, sure, but today CNG is still a fossil fuel.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by bertb

Here in Oklahoma City there is an energy company called Chesapeake, their fleet vehicles F150s are all CNG, when they are done with them they find their way onto the used market. I've seen several on Craigslist. Was going to buy one before I got my Civic but couldn't put two car seats and Moma in a 3-seater. There are at least 2 filling stations in town that sell for $1.39 a gallon.

Best I can tell, everything they operate around PA is gasoline fueled.

[NeilBlanchard]

Natural gas has similar range limitations to electric cars, and the infrastructure is almost nonexistent. Even with fracking, our domestic supplies might last only 60-70 years? And there are myriad of problems with fracking -- lots of methane (natural gas) is released from the ground, and it is a 20X worse GHG than carbon dioxide. Wells are poisoned, and why is it that the gas drilling industry needs to keep the chemicals in the fracking fluid secret?

Now, if we start getting our methane from renewable sources -- which is very doable, then fine. Methane digesters can make gas from plant and animal waste (including our waste). This reuses carbon that has recently come from the atmosphere, so it adds nothing.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Even with fracking, our domestic supplies might last only 60-70 years? And there are myriad of problems with fracking -- lots of methane (natural gas) is released from the ground, and it is a 20X worse GHG than carbon dioxide. Wells are poisoned, and why is it that the gas drilling industry needs to keep the chemicals in the fracking fluid secret?

1: There is a suspected 100+ years of gas production in NEPA alone.

2: Lots of methane is released, yes, and a bunch of carbon and soot are created during the 3-5 day frac (proper spelling) process. This should be addressed.

3: What water wells have been poisoned by current frac methods? It's been a known fact that nearly 100% of drilled water wells in PA have high sulphur and methane content. This has been the case throughout the history of the area.

4: The only people that think the frac fluid is a secret are those who refuse to actually look into it. What part of the process is hidden? You can stand off site and take pictures, record vehicle numbers, chemical placard data, etc.. And all without question, unless you're trespassing on leased land or the land owners don't want you there.

Realistically, most the arguments against frac were probably raised by people reading outdated information about previous methods, including pumping raw diesel fuel into the ground. They didn't read the part about back flow, though...

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's the so-called Halliburton Loophole:

Hydraulic fracturing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Editorial - The Halliburton Loophole - NYTimes.com
Our look at the HALLIBURTON LOOPHOLE - 2005 Energy Act

So, what happens in 100 years?

[Christ]

What you're suggesting, that I can tell, is that some potentially catastrophic event will occur as a result of fracing...

So, what is your suggestion for a method of gas and crude extraction in the area?

The actual fractures happen a mile or more below the surface of the earth. The deepest water wells I can ever remember working with were 250 feet deep. That's MAYBE into the second casing, possibly still the first.

Sure, there's a chance for seismic activity due to pressure change, but ANY removal of the deposits causes the same, and that fact has been looming since the first drakes were set.

Once again, none of the chemicals used were ever hidden. Non disclosure doesn't mean hidden, it means I'm not telling you. Halliburton knew that giving up the information willingly could compromise their business, and nobody ever just took the time to look.

That I know of, every company in Pa is using the multi stage procedure, which lasts, on average, no more than 7 days per hole, with 3, 5, 7, or more holes on a single pad, which addresses land use issues by utilizing a single pad for several wells, covering miles of formation with a couple acres of reformed land.

Look, I'm not friendly with the gas industry by any means. I'm not going to keep listening to people call frac the work of Satan, either.

I do support full disclosure, as well.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Christ

4: The only people that think the frac fluid is a secret are those who refuse to actually look into it. What part of the process is hidden? You can stand off site and take pictures, record vehicle numbers, chemical placard data, etc.. And all without question, unless you're trespassing on leased land or the land owners don't want you there.

So that includes the US Congress?

We informed the Administrator that our investigation uncovered documents showing that contrary to federal law, oil and gas service companies had injected more than 30 million gallons of diesel fuel or fluids containing diesel fuel during hydraulic fracturing of natural gas wells from 2005 to 2009. In April, we released a second analysis showing that these companies used millions of gallons of hydraulic fracturing products containing 29 chemicals that are known or possible human carcinogens, regulated under the Safe Drinking Water Act for their risks to human health, or listed as hazardous air pollutants under the Clean Air Act. The same analysis found that the companies used 94 million gallons of hydraulic fracturing fluids containing “proprietary” or “trade secret” compounds, often without full knowledge of their risks or hazard profiles.

They are being blocked, your claim of transparency is false.

DeGette Calls for Committee Hearing on Hydraulic Fracturing

[NeilBlanchard]

The EPA is not told what is in the fracking fluid. They are injecting the stuff right into the earth, including the water table -- there is no way of knowing where it all goes, and things do not always work as planned. Just ask BP.

Is the risk of poisoning the water we all depend on to live, worth the temporary bit of energy? What if we produced methane from plant and animal waste -- i.e. renewably instead? So rather than risk, we get the benefit of organic fertilizer, and energy too.

[rmay635703]

If we include methane hydrate off the coast our country has several hundred years worth for itself.

While I don't agree with how fraccing occurs either but I need to ask, why are we drilling off the coast for oil or fraccing inshore when the methane hydrate in many areas releases without drilling off the deep areas of the ocean floor?

Methane is the cleanest of the fossil fuels, it makes oil wells look like soft coal.

And it eliminates the very dirty and wastefull process of refining.

It would be an excellent intermediary between our current oil based economy and something cleaner in the future.

[Big Dave]

Weren't we asked to keep it about the cars?