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Old 12-16-2018, 09:14 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I would think a warm air intake would be a good first mod (if your car is happy with it).

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Old 12-16-2018, 10:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
Someone I know rebuilt his Ford Bronco to run on propane, and gets significantly lower fuel economy with propane, but due to how inexpensive propane is, he is saving a decent amount of money. However, like with electric, you'd need a decent source of propane so you aren't stranded. Propane isn't as readily available as gas and diesel are. Plus, the changeover is complicated.
I typed out a big response to RedDevil earlier, but it got eaten by the newbie filter - I tried to share a link, so waiting on a mod response

It's not a conversion - it's an additional fuel, added directly to the air intake. It fools the O2 sensor into thinking there's more fuel (edit: Well, more GAS than there actually is, it equates to roughly the same amount of fuel to avoid knocking) going into the engine than there actually is, so the computer backs off on the injectors. According to the source, a single 20 lb tank should last approximately 400 miles, adding an average of 6 mpg to any car installed.

Last edited by DeliveryGuy89; 12-16-2018 at 11:04 PM..
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Old 12-17-2018, 03:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Sounds like a crude DIY propane add-on. Half the reason I haven't set up my own is that, as I understand it, propane like to burn exhaust valves if it's running rich. If you're depending on the O2 sensor to prevent it by reducing how much fuel it's putting in, chances are it's going to be running rich a lot of the time...until the ECU has time to compensate.

Of course, for all I know, it might not be a concern with such a small ratio or propane.

Another reason I didn't want to do it is the car I was willing to try it on depended on a MAP sensor to decide on it's A/F ratio...if you introduced a gaseous substance, it would see it as there being more air in the manifold and would, presumably, think it needs to add more fuel to the mix, when it should be adding less.

I'd prefer to use it on something that uses a MAF sensor. Not only could you avoid the engine thinking there's more air going in, but if you could add air along with the propane post-MAF, at the right ratio, the ECU wouldn't have much to compensate for. Something I'd like to try one day...
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Old 12-17-2018, 04:00 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Also mind that propane injection like that only works when the engine is in closed loop. In open loop (like when cold or accelerating flat out) the ECU falls back to standard values; then the extra propane smothers the engine.
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Old 12-17-2018, 10:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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(Cary Grant voice): "Rapid City, South Dakota!"

Does that one gas station on the east side of town still have all those stuffed and mounted big game animals?

As others have said, HHO and whatnot are all snake oil--you might as well try Rocket Tabs for all the good it will do you. I would skip the propane; I don't see that paying for itself. And I wouldn't bother with Plexiglass windows--they may be lighter, but there are easier ways to lose as much weight for no cost and not have to deal with issues like weathering, scratching, and sealing. (See the Green Grand Prix modding thread for an example list).

If you're spending considerable time idling waiting for orders, and stopping with the engine off, I would look into engine insulation to retain heat in addition to more battery capacity. Specifically, (and I'm going to try this on my car) an engine "jacket" like BMW announced they would develop a few years ago and apparently never did. But, this guy made one for his Insight :

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Old 12-17-2018, 11:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliveryGuy89 View Post
I typed out a big response to RedDevil earlier, but it got eaten by the newbie filter - I tried to share a link, so waiting on a mod response

It's not a conversion - it's an additional fuel, added directly to the air intake. It fools the O2 sensor into thinking there's more fuel (edit: Well, more GAS than there actually is, it equates to roughly the same amount of fuel to avoid knocking) going into the engine than there actually is, so the computer backs off on the injectors. According to the source, a single 20 lb tank should last approximately 400 miles, adding an average of 6 mpg to any car installed.
You are not adding any fuel economy to your vehicle.
Just burning propane in place of gasoline.
Which in most places propane is more expensive than gasoline.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teoman View Post
I would think a warm air intake would be a good first mod (if your car is happy with it).
Yeah in SD a warm air intake could be a huge help this time of year.
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Old 12-17-2018, 11:19 AM   #18 (permalink)
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poster child for electric drive

DeliveryDriver, you sound like a perfect candidate for a second car, both for reliability/redundancy and quick payback on an electric vehicle. As Rapid City has four Level 2 EV charging stations, save that Subie for winter beater duty, and consider an EV for the other 8 months. A Bolt could cover all of your daily miles and feel like a rocket compared to the Outback, and a Volt could make the most of hour hours-long downtime for taking opportunity recharges.

Of course, the AWD Teslas aren't cheap yet, but you do have a Supercharger in town, and a 2WD Model S with lifetime free supercharging is now pretty easy to find in the $40k range...

For year-round efficiency, a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has electric AWD that has proven its mettle in Scandinavia and the Australian outback.
Here's an Outlander PHEV at your local dealer, and after the $5836 tax credit, you'd experience some significant monthly savings on a single car solution EVen without midday recharges.. Drivers are reporting 34 mpg after the 20 miles of electric only range.
https://www.libertymitsubishi.com/ne...5f34960056.htm
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Old 12-17-2018, 12:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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2nd car for days you don't need AWD, I'd pick a Mirage, idle consumption is probably under 1/3 gallon per hour, $.66 an hour to stay warm.

Forget propane, in 20 lbs tanks it's around $4 a gallon, $5.80 gasoline equivalent. (88,000 btu per gallon vs 128,000 btu, from memory could be off some).

When adding a extra fuel to the air stream the car's LTFT(Long Term Fuel Trim) will go negative using less gasoline, you'd really want that amount of fuel to be constant ratio with the air flow so that the LTFT doesn't jump all over the place. The most you can do without getting a CEL is about 20% of fuel demand. Open Loop or Closed loop the LTFT is still used to adjust the mixture.

Last edited by roosterk0031; 12-17-2018 at 01:51 PM..
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Old 12-17-2018, 02:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stubby79 View Post
Sounds like a crude DIY propane add-on. Half the reason I haven't set up my own is that, as I understand it, propane like to burn exhaust valves if it's running rich. If you're depending on the O2 sensor to prevent it by reducing how much fuel it's putting in, chances are it's going to be running rich a lot of the time...until the ECU has time to compensate.

Of course, for all I know, it might not be a concern with such a small ratio or propane.
Less Crude than just dumping a hose into your air intake, but DIY installation, yes.

It meters out depending on the engine vacuum at the moment, and you can manually control the flow from inside the vehicle, from .5 cfm at idle to 1.5 cfm at full bore, or any variant thereof depending on how your car reacts to it.

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