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Old 07-09-2010, 11:44 AM   #91 (permalink)
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You see, this is the type of thing that I was talking about. What risky behaviour? Tell me exactly what risk you'd rather they didn't take.
According to Halliburton they used too few blowouts for the amount of gas projected and an improper cheaper well design than would have been required for the amount of methane hydrate in the area. Engineering stated as such and was overruled in inside memos. A "they will never know and its already done mentality" took root

Also the well was leaking gas about a week prior to the blowout & consequent explosion, that should have been an indication to BP & to our government to move forward then with plan B.

There should always be a backup plan ready to go in these type of things.

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There's your problem right there - autoproctology :-) Ain't no "ruling class" involved, just people.
Not exactly, not sure where you work but where I do there are a couple dozen people up a totem pole, one up top somewhere above you, says do this without any knowledge of how it will be done or if it should be done, the rest are forced to do it regardless of the consequences the crap rolls downhill until someone gets stuck holding the firecracker. Stating facts opposing the management far above is pointless unless you can get someone uninvolved of a higher level to talk to those higher ups involved, but it can result still in discipline if you start pushing back. You are required to follow the hierarchy to state grievances, makes it hard to get anything communicated in many circumstances. Your "boss" may agree but the guy above him might not want to tell it to the guy above him.

Also needless to say once something fails there is a witch hunt for the guy last pushing the cart.

Most places I have worked at are like this, we will try to do things that are not right before we fail and do the correct thing. Unless the thing that is not right succeeds as it sometimes does then we keep doing that way forever.

There is a definite group of people that feel themselves to be above the peons below, they set the directives, they make the rules, they are the ruling class within the company.

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Old 07-09-2010, 02:04 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Got the evidence of what? There's evidence of an integrity failure but nothing showing that the company cut corners to save money. Again, just because the press says so, doesn't make it true.
No, but neither should you ignore what the press has to say - especially when various sources all paint a consistent picture. And as I said, there is one big piece of evidence out there that says that SOMETHING wasn't done right. Unless of course you'd like to claim that we can't believe the press, and there's really no oil out there at all. I mean, I haven't gone out to look myself, you know.
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Old 07-09-2010, 02:09 PM   #93 (permalink)
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There is a definite group of people that feel themselves to be above the peons below, they set the directives, they make the rules, they are the ruling class within the company.
Nope. That's management. "Ruling class" implies that that group is made up of people who are born to their positions. I'll bet that if you look at the management of any non-family owned company, you'll find that most of the management are plain ordinary people who worked their way up the ladder.
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Old 07-10-2010, 07:36 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by clanny View Post
Got the evidence of what? There's evidence of an integrity failure but nothing showing that the company cut corners to save money. Again, just because the press says so, doesn't make it true.
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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
No, but neither should you ignore what the press has to say - especially when various sources all paint a consistent picture. And as I said, there is one big piece of evidence out there that says that SOMETHING wasn't done right. Unless of course you'd like to claim that we can't believe the press, and there's really no oil out there at all. I mean, I haven't gone out to look myself, you know.
My question is, what is the logical plausibility of the testimony of the electrical engineer from the 60 minutes interview? Clanny, if you're a neutral 3rd party, can you disprove the plausibility of the interview? I'm not saying is it true or not, only if it is plausible.
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I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which is that it's not rational to do either speed or fuel economy mods for economic reasons. You do it as a form of recreation, for the fun and for the challenge.
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:07 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Clanny, if you're a neutral 3rd party
No such thing. Anyone who lives in Florida, Louisiana, or Britain has a considerable financial stake in this, each of them with a different perspective. I heard that some enormous percentage (~15%?) of pension dollars in Britain are tied up in BP shares, which have crashed as a result of this one industrial accident.

The "Blame BP" angle is overplayed, but when people lose so much, they're going to blame someone. I much prefer "Blame BP" to "blame the government". Regardless of where the distribution of blame really lies, it will produce a better outcome. Obama will be able to pass more energy and climate reforms, oil companies will have a clear financial incentive to be more careful, BP's money will pay for the cleanup of the gulf, and BP will change their name and logo and get back to business eventually.
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Old 07-10-2010, 04:03 PM   #96 (permalink)
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...like your mother said, "...SHARE and SHARE alike!"

½-blame belongs to BP for OWNERSHIP & OPERATION of the hardware that failed(*)

½-blame belongs to GOV'T for ownership of non-diligent OVERSIGHT & MONITORING.



(*) you own a car, but need to have INSURANCE against "accidents", so do oil companies!
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Old 07-11-2010, 02:56 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Arrow Relevant article from Yahoo

I apologize for the length of this post, but in the interest of avoiding a dead link, I've copied and pasted this article from Yahoo.

Technology's disasters share long trail of hubris

Oil spill, space shuttle disasters: When technological arrogance, hubris lead to catastrophe

Seth Borenstein, AP Science Writer, On Sunday July 11, 2010, 1:37 pm
WASHINGTON (AP) -- It's all so familiar. A technological disaster, then a presidential commission examining what went wrong. And ultimately a discovery that while technology marches on, concern for safety lags. Technology isn't as foolproof as it seemed.
Space shuttles shatter. Bridges buckle. Hotel walkways collapse. Levees fail. An offshore oil rig explodes, creating the biggest offshore oil spill in U.S. history.
The common thread -- which the new presidential oil spill commission will be looking for -- often is technological arrogance and hubris. It's the belief by those in charge that they're the experts, that they know what they're doing is safe. Add to that the human weaknesses of avoidance, greed and sloppiness, say academics who study disasters.
Even before the oil spill commission holds its first meeting Monday in New Orleans, panel co-chairman William Reilly couldn't help but point out something he's already noticed.
The technology to clean up after an oil spill "is primitive," Reilly said. "It's wholly disproportionate to the tremendous technological advances that have allowed deepwater drilling to go forward. It just hasn't kept pace."
Then he added that government regulation also hasn't kept pace. And something else hasn't kept up either, Reilly said: how the oil industry assesses and works with the risk of catastrophic damage from spills.
Cutting-edge technology often works flawlessly. People are amazed. At first, everyone worries about risk. Then people get lulled into complacency by success and they forget that they are operating on the edge, say experts who study disasters. Corners get cut, problems ignored. Then boom.
Technological disasters, like the BP oil spill, follow a well-worn "trail of tears," said Bob Bea, a University of California Berkeley engineering professor who has studied 630 disasters of all types. Bea is also an expert on offshore drilling and is consulting with the presidential commission.
Bea categorizes disasters into four groups. One such group is when an organization simply ignores warning signs through overconfidence and incompetence. He thinks the BP spill falls into that category. Bea pointed to congressional testimony that BP ignored problems with a dead battery, leaky cement job and loose hydraulic fittings.
It's that type of root cause -- not the equipment failure alone -- that the oil spill commission will focus on, including looking at the corporate and regulatory "culture" that led to bad decisions, Reilly said.
Disasters don't happen because of "an evil empire," Bea said. "It's hubris, arrogance and indolence."
And disasters will keep on happening. In the future, watch out for problems with the U.S. power grid, Sacramento levee failures, flood protection problems along coastal cities and even some of the newest high-tech airplanes, said Rutgers University professor Lee Clarke, author of the book "Worst Cases."
"There's nothing safe out there," said Yale University professor Charles Perrow, author of the book "Normal Accidents." "We like to pretend there is and argue afterward, 'That's why we took the risks because it hadn't failed before.'"
Technological improvements have gradually led to more daring offshore drilling attempts.
"It kind of creeps up on you," Energy Secretary Steven Chu said in an interview with The Associated Press. Then suddenly you realize that now only robots can do what people used to do because the drilling is so deep, he said.
Clarke put it this way: "We've been doing this every day, every year, week in, week out, so next week when we go to 5,000 feet, it will be like last week when we went to 300 feet," Clarke said. "It's just the arrogant presumption that you have got the thing under control, whatever the thing is. In this case, it's drilling beyond your depth."
Paul Fischbeck, a professor of decision sciences at Carnegie Mellon University, said the existence of a blowout preventer -- a final backup system which in this case didn't work -- often encourages people to take extra risks.
But the oil industry was so confident in its safety that it used to brag when compared to another high-tech gold standard: NASA.
"They looked more successful than NASA," said Rice University oil industry scholar Amy Myers Jaffe. "They had less mechanical failures."
The oil rig explosion "reminds me an awful lot of the NASA accidents," said Stanford physics professor Douglas Osheroff, who was on the commission that examined the causes of the space shuttle Columbia disaster in 2003.
"Obviously none of these systems are fail-safe," Osheroff said. "People don't spend enough time thinking about what could go wrong."
And because people are so sure of themselves, when they see something go wrong that they can't fix, they accept it, Osheroff said. The Columbia accident investigation board called it "normalization of deviance." Pieces of foam insulation had broken off the shuttle external fuel tank six previous times before that problem proved fatal with Columbia when a piece of foam knocked a deadly hole in a shuttle wing. Hot gas had singed "O" rings in space shuttle boosters well before the problem led Challenger to explode at launch in 1986.
Yale's Perrow pointed to NASA's shuttles and another BP disaster -- the 2005 Texas City refinery explosion that killed 15 people -- as cases of simply ignoring "heavy warnings" from experts.
When the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazards Investigation Board looked into the 2005 refinery fire it noted that BP had the same problems with "safety culture" that NASA had before Columbia.
"The Texas City disaster was caused by organizational and safety deficiencies at all levels of the BP Corporation," the board's final report said. "Warning signs of a possible disaster were present for several years, but company officials did not intervene effectively to prevent it."
There have been times when warnings of disaster are heeded. The Y2K computer bug is noteworthy for prevention, Clarke said. Many people scoffed and criticized the government for making such a big deal of something that turned out to be a fizzle. But that's because of all the effort to prevent the disaster, Clarke said. It worked.
Unfortunately, safety costs money, so it's usually not a priority, Clarke said. Most of the time "you can't get anybody to listen," he said. "We're very reactive about disasters in the United States."
People don't think about them until afterward, he said, and then they say: "You should have seen that coming."
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I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which is that it's not rational to do either speed or fuel economy mods for economic reasons. You do it as a form of recreation, for the fun and for the challenge.
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Old 07-12-2010, 12:19 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Unfortunately, safety costs money, so it's usually not a priority, Clarke said. Most of the time "you can't get anybody to listen," he said. "We're very reactive about disasters in the United States."
People don't think about them until afterward, he said, and then they say: "You should have seen that coming."
So true of almost everyone in this country! Examples:

Virtually nobody here in Florida does anything to try to reduce the damage to their homes from hurricanes. The attitudes of most is that if it wasn't incorporated into the house when it was built, there is no sense trying to retrofit the home. In fact, many will try to get around including any code-required improvements for hurricane resistance because it increases their costs too much. Also, many just state that "that is the reason for having insurance." Then they can't understand why their insurance is being canceled or their rates have skyrocketed.

Also, few of those who have solar electric power installed on their homes get battery backup. They are going to feel very foolish when the grid goes down for an extended time and they have all this power being generated but they can't use it because their inverters won't work without the grid.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:04 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Friend of the family / neighbor (about 1 mile) talking/ singing about the spill.

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Old 07-15-2010, 08:18 PM   #100 (permalink)
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THEY HAVE STOPPED THE OIL SPEW!

It may only be temporary -- they are testing to see what happens inside the well. If there is damage, and it starts leaking, they will have to open the valves again to keep the ground from eroding and collapsing; which would be a horrible outcome.

So, keep your fingers crossed! They might be able to cap this thing...

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