Old to fuel-saving New to here

[GeorgeWiseman]

Originally Posted by XYZ

Meanwhile, if you want a clearer description of how George's unit is installed...

That is the HyCO 2A. Remember that it is different than the HyCO 2DT

[jakobnev]

. .assume .80 volymetric efficiency..

You'll forgive me for assuming .442 instead, i hope

You see, at 2760rpm load doesn't rise as fast with throttle opening as it does near idle..

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by GeorgeWiseman

Ah, I now understand. Thank you. Thank you VERY much. That statement was helpful. I think I now see a consistent paradigm here.

Some people think that the throttle plate/valve restricts the engine's air intake, significantly lowering the VE when it is closed or nearly closed and that a VE of 0.8 MUST be at or near at WOT. This isn't true..

Even a lot of mechanics make this mistake. In previous posts I've tried to explain WHY this miss-conception isn't true but people are still miss-understanding.
I'll try to do explain better... and I'll go looking for references since I sense I have little credibility here and this seems to be a major stumbling block. Thank you for pointing out this stumbling block.

It is true that if the throttle plate totally blocked off the air intake, the piston would create a high vacuum and no air would get into the cylinder.

This is so obvious that the next natural conclusion is that if the throttle is 10% open, that the cylinder would get only 10% air, 20% open 20% air and so on; but that logical assumption is wrong!

The truth is that pretty much as soon as the throttle plate cracks open just a little bit, just enough so the engine can idle, the VE goes up to about 0.8.
As the throttle opens up more, the VE goes up more, but only a little more.

And now the REALLY counter-intuitive part, as engine rpm increases, the VE decreases, even though the throttle is open MORE.
Now I'm talking about 'normal' engine design here, not custom tuned intake manifolds that can actually exceed 100% VE (yep, just PACK that air in even without a turbocharger).

Air pressure and air temperature are important considerations but as far as VE is concerned, they are only 'fine tuning' considerations.

Here are some links to places that can explain volumetric efficiency.

Basic VE explanation

Find your VE with a scan tool

Volumetric Efficiency calculator
Note that this calculator shows the Aveo's VE to be 79.999%
Givens: CFM=62.37, CID=97.64, RPM=2760

Here is a forum discussion about calculating VE

A good experiment to do, to better understand how the throttle restriction and VE interact, would be to take a large syringe (sans needle) and hold it in your left hand with your index finger ready to 'cap' the luer fitting hole (tiny hole where the needle would go.

If you 'cap' the hole and then try to pull the plunger back (with your right hand), you will feel the pull against vacuum
(OK you science guys, I know vacuum is only a relative lack of pressure and that it is the atmospheric pressure that is pushing on the back of the plunger, but work with me here, we're talking to mechanics).
and when you release the plunger it will 'snap' back to the bottom because no air came into the cylinder.

That would be throttle plate 100% covering the engine's air intake, it's not going to run because it isn't getting any air.

So now we take our finger off the orifice and pull the plunger back slowly. As soon as we are done pulling, we instantly cap the orifice...

We now find the plunger doesn't move at all (or maybe only a little bit), the air pressure inside and outside are equal so the cylinder is 100% full of air, even though the air had to come in through a tiny orifice.
This is a principle of fluid dynamics whereby the air will move 'faster' through the orifice, to try to fill the area in the cylinder that becomes available as you pull the plunger out (and the absolute pressure will drop, making a vacuum in the orifice and the cylinder as air moves).

So, when the engine is near idle, the VE is fairly high, even though the throttle plate is near closed.

Next we reset the syringe, plunger to bottom and pull harder/faster and again cap the orifice just as we get done pulling. Ah HA!, the plunger now goes back down the cylinder if we release it!

So the faster we pull the plunger, the LOWER the VE!

Now in real life, we're opening up the throttle as we increase rpm, and valve timing usually allows air to enter the cylinder for a bit after BDC and other factors (like air velocity and intake tuning) help keep VE up, but the point is that VE usually decreases when rpm increases.

I hope I've now convinced you that I do know what VE is and how it works so you will believe that my 'lie' calculation is reasonably accurate and that anyone can duplicate it on their own vehicle.

The next question is... If the throttle plate isn't really restricting air flow, if it doesn't have a significant effect on VE... Why is the throttle plate even there?

It's there because the engine needs the vacuum to lower the 'boiling point' of the gasoline, so vapors will be produced from the volume of liquid being dumped into the engine.

While the throttle plate doesn't significantly affect VE, it DOES put a significant load on the engine. It takes energy to maintain that vacuum. Remember how much more power you needed to use to pull that syringe plunger back faster?
With my Aveo, I'm 'consuming' about 0.3 gph of fuel just to idle. This is a crazy amount of energy that is wasted, just to help the fuel partially vaporize. If we feed the engine with vapor, we can eliminate the intake manifold vacuum and dramatically lower that parasitic power loss.

We still need a 'fuel regulating valve' of some kind, but it wouldn't have to cause a vacuum. That is how my RV generator is currently set up and, come spring, I'll make a video of it.

But one step at a time. Let's resolve this VE question first.

It's very obvious you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Why don't you take a few classes in real engineering George. Why don't you run your video again with a wide band oxygen sensor so we can see your fuel ratio while you drive along at 60 mph and partial throttle. Let's see how you explain why you calculate an ultra lean condition while the O2 sensor reads the normal 14.7:1 ratio of fuel to air in your Aveo.

Mass. That is what the throttle plate controls. The mass of air into the engine.

Why don't you go and read your own links, they do not support your premise of a relatively "constant VE" engine.

And no, your syringe analogy is poor as the needle cross sectional area is much smaller than a given valve cross sectional area in a typical engine cylinder. But it does support my contention that throttling reduces VE. Yes, it is obvious that the cylinder VE is reduced as piston velocity goes up, but this again doesn't support your assumption of 0.8 VE in your video calculation.

Instead of an assumed 0.8 VE, why don't you measure it and clear this whole issue up? The links you gave show how to do so. And yes, they require you to measure air temperature and manifold vacuum. And, that VE calculator page assumes you know the actual air flow at the calculated settings. You do not know this for your Aveo in the video.

[Econoguru]

This has been a great thread. George is such a great sport. I am a novice when it comes to understanding some of the theory behind these methods, but to fend off so many people on a website which is membered by people who understand that what George is telling them is not possible is incredible. George is an absolute master of the yarn. He is the modern day snake oil salesman.

There are a number of reasons why this all falls down for me:

1. If the products which George sells and supports worked, they would have been incorporated into modern vehicle design. Fact.

2. If the products worked George would use them in his wifes car.

3. If George made any money (and lets face it...if these products worked he would have a LOT of money) he would not let his wife travel around in a Chevy Aveo.

4. His other Youtube video is about the healing powers of electrified water.

Sorry George but as fun as reading this has been I can't commit any more time to it! Good luck with the rest of your pitch though :-)

[sarguy01]

Yes, so you answered your own question. It doesn't matter if you are burning gasoline in liquid or vapor; as you increase combustion efficiency your exhaust oxygen content will rise.

No. That is a common misunderstanding. The EFIE is NOT a fuel saver, ask anyone who has installed it without also installing an actual combustion enhancement technology.

Why do I need it at all then? I didn't answer my own question...if the engine is still burning gasoline, then the O2 sensor will still function properly, with no need to "trick" it??

[sarguy01]

Originally Posted by GeorgeWiseman

No, the 'lie' math has absolutely nothing to do with wide open throttle. The math is for normal driving with normal throttle use. The math simply takes the weight of air that ACTUALLY goes through the engine and compares it to the weight of fuel that ACTUALLY goes through the engine during NORMAL vehicle operation.

You can confirm this by using your own scan gauge on your own vehicle just like I show you. I never mention anything about wide open throttle.

Can you tell me why you think I'm talking about wide open throttle?

I mention wide open throttle because your VE is not going to be 80% at part throttle cruise. It will be much less. From this blog, "At part throttle conditions, like cruising down the road with the throttle plate nearly closed, the volumetric efficiency can be as low as 20%." Performance Trends Blog » Better than Perfect

Using this referenced website, Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc. I calculated the VE requirement for some assumed numbers, like HP needed cruise at 60 mph and BSFC.

Then, using your math and fuel flow rate, I came up with a much different air/fuel ratio. Also, at -2* F, which your video showed, the weight of air, according to Wiki Specific weight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is different than what you used in the video. You can see my spreadsheet:


Granted, there are a few assumptions, but you can see that with your math, with the exception of VE, I got an air/fuel ratio that the rest of the world would consider "normal".

Here is a snapshot of my air/fuel ratio from my drive to work this morning. This isn't a wideband, but even taking into account there could be some error in accuracy, the air/fuel ratio is right where everyone but yourself thinks it should be.


Can you explain how my data logged A/F ratio is false?

I took two semesters of calc and two semesters of calc based physics in college. I am hardly an expert on any of this and would never claim that I know a lot on the subjects at hand (I have no idea if your math is correct, either...). But, using your references and assuming your A/F calculation method is correct, I was able to come up with a much different A/F ratio. Please explain.

[elhigh]

I'm voting this entire thread be moved to the Unicorn Corral.

For further evidence, please visit George's Youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/user/ecopegasus

It's lousy with overunity generators, the assorted health effects of Brown's Gas, and how vertical axis wind turbines are the wave of the future.

For the record: VAWT are actually effective and highly flexible in how they can be installed, but are nowhere near as efficient or effective as a horizontal axis wind turbine of similar cost. They aren't without merit, it's just that they aren't as meritorious as the more familiar HAWT. Again I say, follow the money. If it were really as good as you say, everyone would be building them and everyone would be installing them everywhere. They aren't. That should tell you something.

And finally, my one biggest piece of evidence that George knows he's selling a bill of goods: look at his YouTube user name. "Ecopegasus." He's putting himself right up there with a mythical icon.

I get the feeling you're laughing at people behind your hand, George.

[sarguy01]

To further show that VE is not 80% at cruising, I used data from my car that I datalogged this morning. Here goes:


Columns b, c, and d show three random points.

You can see my HP calculation is based on BSFC/Fuel Flow (as per ATI Procharger). BSFC is a rough estimate, but you can see that at the speeds listed, those HP numbers should be ballpark. The drive was with headlights on and no heater running. My theoretical VE is not based on A/F ratio's.

Again, your A/F ratio math is based on a wide open throttle VE of 80%. When cruising, your VE is not 80%. Your A/F ratio is therefore incorrect since it is based off of your VE being way too high.

I used formulas from here: Volumetric Efficiency (and the REAL factor: MASS AIRFLOW), by EPI Inc..

[XYZ]

Originally Posted by elhigh

I'm voting this entire thread be moved to the Unicorn Corral.

I agree. But unicorns are very elusive creatures. They know how to mislead and be evasive. Sound familiar?

I get the feeling you're laughing at people behind your hand, George.

And so can we point and laugh too, at the Emperor's new clothes.

[XYZ]

Originally Posted by GeorgeWiseman

I am selling it on my website and it is technology I both invented and consulted with him to develop but it is NOT my product. I'm acting as a distributor for him, and another HyCO 2DT manufacturer in Columbia.

Both of these guys bought my HyCO 2DT Manual and are now making a business selling them. They were both above board and consulted with me as they developed and tested their versions. I asked them if I could sell them because I know the product works and has a HUGE marketing potential. If I say more I'll likely be accused of 'marketing' again so I'll wait until we start a HyCO 2DT DIY project here on ecomodders. A home shop can build a fully functional unit for less than $200; that's what I'll help ecomodders do, if anyone cares to.

If this isn't a relentless promotional campaign, I don't know what is. Oh, I'm not the producer, I'm only the distributor. As if that matters to us? You've got numerous slick ways of saying that you are not here to sell anything - but this is one big, endless INFOMERCIAL.

I haven't manufactured HyCO 2DTs since the early 1990s. Here's my FAQ on that.

I'm never going to lie to you guys. I don't lie to anyone. If something seems out of sync it's either ignorance or miss-understanding and respectful communication should clear it up.

When you are held to task for anything you say, you always have a fancy rationalization that is meant to cover it. If it's not a lie it certainly is deliberately misleading - and the intent is the same.

I'm not here to sell you anything. Let's pretend I'm only here to "help" you guys. Actually I'm here to broadcast an endless infomercial. Let me promote my stuff here daily- AD NAUSEAM.

Very slick, indeed. Slicker than unicorn s---.