Open Source Hybrid/Hybrid Electric Car Project

[divedaddy03]

Also, see this successful Open Source Project currently under way (link below).
Main Page - Open Source Ecology

Their business model (if you can call it that) is rock solid and they have heavy community participation. I would love to get to know the founder, I think our project could be modeled a bit after this one.

Thoughts?

Wayne
SC

Originally Posted by drmiller100

i think the idea is a great one.

starting from scratch is easier in many ways.

Personally, I like a donor car with custom frame, and body.

I'll help, but I won't drive the project.

[pete c]

Wayne,

Interesting idea you have here. Good luck with it.

I will throw out my 2 cents worth of advice.

150 miles on pure electric?

Fagettaboutit!

Can a 150 mi. range EV be made? Sure. But, it's gonna take a stupid amount of battery power. And batteries are either expensive or heavy. If you make it heavy, efficiency goes to crap. No matter how efficient everything else is, if you have to drag around a ton of stored electrons, you are screwed.

I think the way to go is keep everything as light and simple as possible. A range of 40 miles will get most folks to work and back. Also, some may have the ability to recharge at work which would help a lot.

As for the ICE part of the equation, you could go the way Ken is with a pure series hybrid configuration. Personally, I think there is a better solution especially with a tadpole layout. You can find used small displacement motorcycles for next to nothing. Why not use one as the rear half of your hybrid. You get an engine, trans and rear suspension/wheel all in one compact package.

I think you will find that doing this is actually cheaper than putting together a series hybrid system.

The CBR 250 might not be quite enough. I would consider a DRZ400 or maybe a KLR650. The larger motors could run higher final drives and might actually be more efficient. And these bikes have been around awhile and are plentiful and cheap, especially the KLR. There are bazillions of these around.

[NeilBlanchard]

My CarBEN EV5 design is open source. Seats 5 and is all electric. I am expecting at least 300-400 miles range.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...ter-11969.html

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...eat-22529.html

I think an EV with an optional serial hybrid genset makes sense.

[divedaddy03]

I like your thoughts on the CBR, I think it may be lacking a bit in power and slightly loud for the application? I'm not familiar with "miller cycle", I'll check it out!

I value your opinion too.

I'm NOT an advocate for E85, here's why. It takes more energy to produce E85 than it does regular unleaded and/or diesel fuel and it's less efficient. Yes, there is a marketing value to saying your car runs on E85 but it's an overall bad idea out of the gaits. One of my farmer friends in Indiana set up his own ethanol plant and is producing...he and I go round and round on the topic. However, his goal was to drive capital in other was than just farming. My goal is to protect the planet and help others to do so as well. Personally, I think the E85 craze will fizzle out as government funding does. Why not a small diesel motor running on Veg oil? Low RPM's, quiet, hit torque to weight ratio, etc... Just my thoughts, not saying I'm all right here though.

Wayne
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Originally Posted by serialk11r

That's a cool idea too, although the reason I mention the CBR motor is because it probably weighs next to nothing, and has very good power to weight ratio. The compression ratio is high and the rod stroke ratio is high so that offsets the "inherent" inefficiency of running at higher speed, I don't know what the cam specs are but I imagine regrinding the exhaust cam for say 5krpm rather than 10k, and then retarding the intake cam position to reduce volumetric efficiency should give a small bump in efficiency. Since it's a bike motor it probably has stupid long duration, so this might allow stoichiometric air fuel ratios at full throttle. At 5000rpm you could probably make 15hp? which is probably adequate for high speed highway cruising. If not, a turbocharger might be appropriate, with "miller cycle" operation.

The only thing is, if you use say E85 for renewableness, the port injection kinda wastes some of the charge cooling. Perhaps moving the injector upstream would be good, if more of the alcohol is vaporized before it hits the valves then less heat will be transferred to them. Also the compression ratio would need another bump to utilize the alcohol effectively, which is hard to do with the short stroke messing up in cylinder flow and combustion chamber geometry. I guess that's another argument for a turbo?

[divedaddy03]

Pete,

Thanks for the comments, I value them immensely.

I fully understand that we don't want to drag around weight (or as little as possible)... That said, I think the challenge that we're facing is the lack of fluidity in the EV community on what the "goal car" should look like.
Here's what I mean. I do very little driving, most of my driving needs could be fulfilled by the 40mi range EV. My GF needs to be able to do 150mi round trip for her work each day but no way to recharge at work as she needs to make rounds and manage several different retail stores. Additionally, I have family and kids that live in Indiana and I'm in South Carolina. So, to fit the needs of perfect efficiency...I need 3 cars. One with an ICE, One with tons of stored electrons, and One very small and highly efficient EV for short runs.

My issue with this is. Its fiscally irresponsible for me (and most Americans) to own three cars especially when I'm only using one of them at a time generally (I work from home at the moment). So....what are my options? Build a modular car that any power plant (within reason) can be dropped in to. This will probably nullify the reverse trike design however make it accessible to a larger sum of individuals. My battle with this is, would we be straying too far from the goal at this point...to make an AFFORDABLE, relatively safe car for under 10K? Probably so.

I like your idea on the DRZ and KLR rear end. I'm not clear in my head how to make the front and rear work together seamlessly for the average driver but that's why I'm here, to learn and build a community of people that are willing to work together to drive this project.

I'm open to all ideas guys, these are just some thoughts going through my thick skull. :-)

Wayne
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Originally Posted by pete c

Wayne,

Interesting idea you have here. Good luck with it.

I will throw out my 2 cents worth of advice.

150 miles on pure electric?

Fagettaboutit!

Can a 150 mi. range EV be made? Sure. But, it's gonna take a stupid amount of battery power. And batteries are either expensive or heavy. If you make it heavy, efficiency goes to crap. No matter how efficient everything else is, if you have to drag around a ton of stored electrons, you are screwed.

I think the way to go is keep everything as light and simple as possible. A range of 40 miles will get most folks to work and back. Also, some may have the ability to recharge at work which would help a lot.

As for the ICE part of the equation, you could go the way Ken is with a pure series hybrid configuration. Personally, I think there is a better solution especially with a tadpole layout. You can find used small displacement motorcycles for next to nothing. Why not use one as the rear half of your hybrid. You get an engine, trans and rear suspension/wheel all in one compact package.

I think you will find that doing this is actually cheaper than putting together a series hybrid system.

The CBR 250 might not be quite enough. I would consider a DRZ400 or maybe a KLR650. The larger motors could run higher final drives and might actually be more efficient. And these bikes have been around awhile and are plentiful and cheap, especially the KLR. There are bazillions of these around.

[Ryland]

To get a 150 mile electric only range you are going to need $6,000 or more in lead acid batteries and that is if you can keep the watt hours per mile down to 200 watt hours per mile, for that you will need a very light, sleek, small vehicle, but for that kind of range you will be pulling around 3,300 or more in lead acid batteries.
I think that when you get in your hybrid vehicle being able to tell the vehicle how long your trip is going to be is important, if it's a short trip it runs on 100% longer trip and the engine kicks in once you are over a set speed or after the battery pack is depleted a set amount, really long trip and the battery pack is only used for low speed driving and giving the gasoline engine a boost for hills and passing.

I don't like the idea of building a car from scratch, I've built vehicles for the super mileage competitions when I was younger and stuff like steering and suspension is hard to get right and make it last, doors are also really hard to build and have work right.

I'd also skip the motorcycle engine, because they are tuned for high RPMs and high power output without much thought to gas mileage, if there is room I'd opt for a Geo Metro XFI engine or a small diesel engine.

[divedaddy03]

Hey man, I think you are on the right track here!

Still gonna say that I'm a fan of the diesel engine idea...open to others though too.

Battery technology will have to step up performance and drop in price before the masses will be able to afford it and/or will adopt to it for long ranges.

That obviously leaves you with a hybrid type of a combo...ditto.

I think building a car from scratch is a really good idea but that could possibly be the second generation one...work with a donor car first.

What do you think about a diesel gen-set/rear wheel drive combo?

Wayne
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Originally Posted by Ryland

To get a 150 mile electric only range you are going to need $6,000 or more in lead acid batteries and that is if you can keep the watt hours per mile down to 200 watt hours per mile, for that you will need a very light, sleek, small vehicle, but for that kind of range you will be pulling around 3,300 or more in lead acid batteries.
I think that when you get in your hybrid vehicle being able to tell the vehicle how long your trip is going to be is important, if it's a short trip it runs on 100% longer trip and the engine kicks in once you are over a set speed or after the battery pack is depleted a set amount, really long trip and the battery pack is only used for low speed driving and giving the gasoline engine a boost for hills and passing.

I don't like the idea of building a car from scratch, I've built vehicles for the super mileage competitions when I was younger and stuff like steering and suspension is hard to get right and make it last, doors are also really hard to build and have work right.

I'd also skip the motorcycle engine, because they are tuned for high RPMs and high power output without much thought to gas mileage, if there is room I'd opt for a Geo Metro XFI engine or a small diesel engine.

[Cobb]

The reason I wasnt for the 3 wheel design was that someone already did it, the Bug E.

Second, in VA its classified as a motorcycle and would require a motorcycle license. I think in your state its different as to why you have a Zap dealer who sold 3 wheeled EVs or did.

My issue with using an eco car is that they are harder to find, cost more and were fairly efficient to begin with. I knew a guy in Lady Smith, VA who made a geo xfi an ev. THose cars as is can exceed 60 mpg and with a 10 thousand dollar EV conversion it would cost you 100 thousand miles to break even vs driving it as a gasser.

I dont recall the name of it, but Ive seen an EV that is 3 wheeled, seats 2 front to back like a jet fighter and leans into the turns. Maybe something alone those lines without the whole chassie tilting into the turns would be possible?

Guess we need to know how to get it past DMV first? I know back in the day many people who got on the Hyjet band wagon, those 4x4 mini cab over trucks that were dumped in the US for off road use. Many removed the shifter blocker plate, got them registered and has a street leagl 4x4 that got 40+ mpg.

[Ryland]

In many states you can register your car as a hot rod or kit car by basing it off a vehicle that is over 20 years old (1992) so an early metro XFI that is rusting out would be perfect! or a regular metro and put the xfi cam shaft in there.
When building a kit car one thing to aim for is basing it off a common car that has issues, like rust! then you use the good parts like doors, dash, suspension and build your car around that.
Honda Civics are another car to look at, a 1992 honda civic sedan or coup is going to sell for a low price if the wheel wheels are rusted out and Civic VX engines bolt in giving you an engine that gets great mileage then either bolt the electric motor in where the AC compressor would bolt on or have the electric motor drive the rear wheels using the drive train from a rear wheel drive or 4 wheel drive vehicle.

Basing your vehicle off as many stock off the shelf parts and stock junk yard parts as possible is going to make your job easier.

[Grant-53]

There are several ways to go depending ong what you are trying to accomplish. My Three Vehicle Solution currently is a Gran Caravan for long trips with the whole family, 4dr Geo Prizm, and a streamlined city bike. GE locomotive engines use diesel engines to power generators for the traction motors. The book 'Solo' chronicles the cross country trip of an electric conversion of a Ford Escort station wagon. The newer small station wagons are space efficient, inexpensive, and can tow a small trailer carrying a diesel generator for longer trips. A combination of lithium batteries, regen braking, and ultracapacitors would be lighter and more suited to stop/go traffic than lead acid batteries. A diesel generator could set up to run on Biodiesel or natural gas depending on availability of fuel. A portable generator is always handy in an emergency.
There are good plans available for trikes that can be adapted to diesel/electric power. The hard part may be defining what the vehicle is meant to accomplish. Consider how we want to use our transportation options in a 21st setting of value management.
Thank you Doug for your offer.