Open Source Hybrid/Hybrid Electric Car Project

[drmiller100]

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles by the federal DOT. No crash safety problems.

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles. Much easier to get the state DOT guys to pass.

Federal laws for motorcycles say the motor must be EPA certified. If you use electric, you bypass this. if you use an ICE from a car, you get past this as long as you have all the emissions equipment the car came with (read CAT).

Motorcycles do not have to pass emissions. 4 wheel cars have to pass emissions, which means operating OBD2 port with serial number of the car embedded in the ECU, which means you have to hack the ECU fundamentally, or build your own from scratch (not available anywhere).

I think you are crazy to consider an open source 4 wheel car.

So. My design uses engine, drive train, steering, brakes, suspension from ANY FRONT WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLE. Read honda civic, geo metro, or vw diesel.

My design uses doors and rear wheel from a Honda Civic. working roll up and down windows on both sides are pretty nice.

My design allows up to 600 pounds of battery/electric motor. With this, and a small generator, you could drive a LONG time.

My design is about 600 pounds for the body, chassis, everything except the drive train. so it is half the weight of any other car out there.

It has a heater, AC, windshield, operating doors, windows, etc.

so let me ask this.

I will give you my design. and I will sell you a body for cheap. or I will sell u a frame for cheap.

what is cheap to you?

If I sold the complete body for 2000 bucks, would you buy one? If I sold you the pieces for the frame for 1000 bucks, partiall welded, would you buy one?

[Josh8loop]

I always thought it would be cool to take my 2002 VW jetta TDI which gets 62 MPG city now, and remove the rear end and install a 4wd hybrid electric rear end in it. I could come up with some electronics and battery packs to let me regeneratively brake and also have an EV boost when accelerating from stop lights etc. I can't even imagine the city MPG's I could get with a setup like that! If the right components and all were found, a kit could be put together for this type of conversion.


..

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by drmiller100

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles by the federal DOT. No crash safety problems.

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles. Much easier to get the state DOT guys to pass.

Federal laws for motorcycles say the motor must be EPA certified. If you use electric, you bypass this. if you use an ICE from a car, you get past this as long as you have all the emissions equipment the car came with (read CAT).

Motorcycles do not have to pass emissions. 4 wheel cars have to pass emissions, which means operating OBD2 port with serial number of the car embedded in the ECU, which means you have to hack the ECU fundamentally, or build your own from scratch (not available anywhere).

The problem is states like Minnesota now say that 3 wheeled motorcycles have to have the driver sitting upright with driver straddling the engine and it seems like more and more states are moving in this direction, Wisconsin a 3 wheeled motorcycle can't weigh over 1,500 pounds if I remember correctly and can't seat more then a driver and passenger.

I don't know how old a vehicle has to be before it no longer has to pass emission tests in most states, but here in Wisconsin if it's over 20 years old a 4 wheeled vehicle can be modified in to a hot rod and is exempt from all sorts of laws, that is why I suggested going with a 1992 Honda Civic as your base vehicle, even if you do need to pass smog tests with one it should be easy.
Some states I think ask that the base vehicle be over 25 years old, but I don't know the details there.

[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by Ryland

The problem is states like Minnesota now say that 3 wheeled motorcycles have to have the driver sitting upright with driver straddling t.

actually, you are incorrect. You can indeed have a 3 wheeled vehicle.

And in fact, there is actually provision for an enclosed motorcycle not needing the occupants to wear helmets.

I looked up the laws in Minnesota, but the laws are pretty standard across the country. And they are not changing any time soon.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.974

[Ryland]

I'm not seeing the MN statute that defines a motorcycle, a member of our local electric vehicle club had the law changes a year or so ago and read down the list of changes that sounded like they would pretty much ban three wheeled cars from being licensed as motorcycles in MN, so if I am wrong please do show me, I don't like the idea of the law change or restrictions.

[divedaddy03]

Originally Posted by Ryland

I'm not seeing the MN statute that defines a motorcycle, a member of our local electric vehicle club had the law changes a year or so ago and read down the list of changes that sounded like they would pretty much ban three wheeled cars from being licensed as motorcycles in MN, so if I am wrong please do show me, I don't like the idea of the law change or restrictions.

Ryland,

Follow this link below for the Minnesota description of a vehicle and motorcycle etc... https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/...tat.169.011.41

Subd. 42.Motor vehicle. "Motor vehicle" means every vehicle which is self-propelled and every vehicle which is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires. Motor vehicle does not include an electric personal assistive mobility device or a vehicle moved solely by human power.
Subd. 43.Motor vehicle dealer. "Motor vehicle dealer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing or selling new and unused motor vehicles, or used motor vehicles, or both, having an established place of business for the sale, trade, and display of such motor vehicles, and having in possession motor vehicles for the purpose of sale or trade.
Subd. 44.Motorcycle. "Motorcycle" means every motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, including motor scooters and bicycles with motor attached, other than those vehicles defined as motorized bicycles in subdivision 45, but excluding a tractor.
Subd. 45.Motorized bicycle. "Motorized bicycle" means a bicycle that is propelled by an electric or a liquid fuel motor of a piston displacement capacity of 50 cubic centimeters or less, and a maximum of two brake horsepower, which is capable of a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on a flat surface with not more than one percent grade in any direction when the motor is engaged. "Motorized bicycle" includes an electric-assisted bicycle as defined in subdivision 27.
Subd. 46.Motorized foot scooter. "Motorized foot scooter" means a device with handlebars designed to be stood or sat upon by the operator, and powered by an internal combustion engine or electric motor that is capable of propelling the device with or without human propulsion, and that has no more than two 12-inch or smaller diameter wheels and has an engine or motor that is capable of a maximum speed of 15 miles per hour on a flat surface with not more than one percent grade in any direction when the motor is engaged. An electric personal assistive mobility device, a motorized bicycle, an electric-assisted bicycle, or a motorcycle is not a motorized foot scooter.
Subd. 47.Neighborhood electric vehicle. "Neighborhood electric vehicle" means an electrically powered motor vehicle that has four wheels, and has a speed attainable in one mile of at least 20 miles per hour but not more than 25 miles per hour on a paved level surface.

Regards,

Wayne
SC

[divedaddy03]

Originally Posted by Ryland

70% of your breaking power is at the front wheels, because as you slow the vehicle the weight shifts to the front, it keeps the vehicle more stable.

I personally like the idea of a 4 wheeled vehicle, a big part of that is living in an area that gets snow, with three wheels you end up with three tire tracks, with 4 wheels you end up with 2 tire tracks, I've also driven a 3 wheeled electric car in the summer on clean dry roads as well as on some dirt road and on well worn roads the rear wheel being in the center gave a less stable feeling.

Have you looked in to the Sunrise EV2? the trouble is that the design is nearly 20 years old so the vehicle that you stripped down for the doors and sub frame is also over 20 years old now and getting harder to find.

Using a unibody vehicle makes the project a little harder to a point but it also means that the body should have some stiffness to it, so cutting a whole side off of a unibody car to make use of the doors should not be a problem, a lot of new cars now glue body panels on instead of welding, spot welds create a weak point because they are a single spot of contact while two panels glued together end up being much stiffer, auto part stores sell to body shops so any auto part store should stock or be able to order these glues for gluing panels together, I see this option as being much cheaper then learning to spot weld.

Ryland,

I wanted to make sure I wasn't "missing" anything in regards to the re-gen braking concept.

4 wheels in the snow...much better, I get your point.

Sunrise EV2...I'm familiar, they have a good idea but it's going to be too much general work for the average DIYer...I'm thinking of a much simpler "bolt together" end product.

Glue it, weld it, tape it together...whatever works! No really, I don't think the uni-body poses too big of a major challenge.

Wayne
SC

[divedaddy03]

Originally Posted by drmiller100

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles by the federal DOT. No crash safety problems.

3 wheeled vehicles are classified as motorcycles. Much easier to get the state DOT guys to pass.

Federal laws for motorcycles say the motor must be EPA certified. If you use electric, you bypass this. if you use an ICE from a car, you get past this as long as you have all the emissions equipment the car came with (read CAT).

Motorcycles do not have to pass emissions. 4 wheel cars have to pass emissions, which means operating OBD2 port with serial number of the car embedded in the ECU, which means you have to hack the ECU fundamentally, or build your own from scratch (not available anywhere).

I think you are crazy to consider an open source 4 wheel car.

So. My design uses engine, drive train, steering, brakes, suspension from ANY FRONT WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLE. Read honda civic, geo metro, or vw diesel.

My design uses doors and rear wheel from a Honda Civic. working roll up and down windows on both sides are pretty nice.

My design allows up to 600 pounds of battery/electric motor. With this, and a small generator, you could drive a LONG time.

My design is about 600 pounds for the body, chassis, everything except the drive train. so it is half the weight of any other car out there.

It has a heater, AC, windshield, operating doors, windows, etc.

so let me ask this.

I will give you my design. and I will sell you a body for cheap. or I will sell u a frame for cheap.

what is cheap to you?

If I sold the complete body for 2000 bucks, would you buy one? If I sold you the pieces for the frame for 1000 bucks, partiall welded, would you buy one?

Miller,

Building a motorcycle requires a person to get a motorcycle license and affects their insurance policy more than a car would...just a thought.

Building a motorcycle is still a better option, I agree. That said, let's build one...get all parts into production and then build another...maybe a 4 wheel design (or improve the old one)? Why stop with one vehicle?

You and I are on the same page, why wouldn't the DIYer buy something like this?

Wayne
SC

[divedaddy03]

Originally Posted by Josh8loop

I always thought it would be cool to take my 2002 VW jetta TDI which gets 62 MPG city now, and remove the rear end and install a 4wd hybrid electric rear end in it. I could come up with some electronics and battery packs to let me regeneratively brake and also have an EV boost when accelerating from stop lights etc. I can't even imagine the city MPG's I could get with a setup like that! If the right components and all were found, a kit could be put together for this type of conversion...

Josh,

I like where you're heads at!

Wayne
SC

[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by divedaddy03

Miller,

Building a motorcycle requires a person to get a motorcycle license and affects their insurance policy more than a car would...just a thought.

Building a motorcycle is still a better option, I agree. That said, let's build one...get all parts into production and then build another...maybe a 4 wheel design (or improve the old one)? Why stop with one vehicle?

You and I are on the same page, why wouldn't the DIYer by something like this?

Wayne
SC

the laws for ENCLOSED motorcycles vary state to state somewhat.

For instance, in Idaho, Washington, California and many other states you do not need a motorcycle endorsement if you are driving an enclosed 3 wheeled motorcycle which has a car style seat and a steering wheel.

As I read the Minnesota laws, they are really confusing, but it SEEMS like to drive a 3 wheeled motorcycle you need to go pass the written test, but not the driving test. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR THIS as the laws are really poorly written in Minnesota in this case.

It is clearly obvious a 3 wheeled enclosed motorcycle like we are talking is legal everywhere in North America. There are some questions about endorsements, whether kids under the age of 18 must wear helmets, but the rest is clear.

It took me a LOT of work to build my first trike. The second one will be 1/10th the work.

and easier after that.

the engine and wiring is the easy part. the hard part was getting the body right and the frame designed to work with the honda donor car.