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Old 08-29-2014, 09:27 PM   #1041 (permalink)
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Sounds good; I'll start a thread about hot-rodding the rear end. Of course everyone's suggestions and questions are welcome. Oh, and I expect to hear from you guys!

Freebeard, I'm curious - do you have any idea about the cost of those processes? I'm especially interested in the Cryogening tempering and Isotropic Superfinishing.

I'll start with some general specs I've found or measured and tear-down pics.

- E*clipse



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Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
I'd like to see a thread called How To Hot-Rod the Lexus 3rd Member. How long does it take to tear down and reassemble. Step-by-step pics. What it looks like installed in the donor vehicle.

For now though—I'd want to rely on the stock temp output, and then characterize the performance after the following on the gearset parts:

Magnaflux to insure reliability
Cryogenic tempering to deter wear
Isotropic Superfinishing to control temperature and increase gearset efficiency


Last edited by e*clipse; 08-30-2014 at 03:39 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:26 PM   #1042 (permalink)
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What do you guys think?
I will read and comment whether it is in this thread or another separate thread. Your choice!
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:33 PM   #1043 (permalink)
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Wikipedia calls it cryogenic hardening. I had a set of brake rotors and drums sent to Cool Rotors in Michigan. It about doubled the cost of the parts, but may give 3-4 times the service life. So far the rotors are unscored.

I found the Isotropic Superfinishing in an article in HotVWs. A transaxle rebuilder in CA will do a whole Vanagon gearset for $250, so less than that.

Magnafluxing, of course, has been around since the '40s.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:39 PM   #1044 (permalink)
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I was thinking that a 3 phase motor might be more reliable than a brushed dc motor (to power the pump) Would you find this true?
Yes. The 3 phase induction motor is heavier for the same horsepower but it is less sensitive to high temperature. Neodymium magnets (popularly used in PM motors) lose their 'permanent' magnet status somewhere around 200C ... and bad things happen.

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Perhaps a really simple sensorless-type controller could be used? I suppose if a 3-phase motor is used, the controller could give an "everythings working" ok signal.
A simple sensorless controller has 2 hall effect sensors and calculates the third (at least the ones I have taken apart). The 'all ok' signal is usually called 'run status'

Quote:
Also, could a **very rough** hall-effect type sensor be used for a minimal 3-phase control? I mean, theoretically, no control at all is needed, just a rotating magnetic field. If the hall effect sensor detected that the rotor wasn't turning even though the magnetic field was, then perhaps the pump is jammed?
A simpler controller that does V/Hz only can be used without hall effect sensors, as well as a simple ramp up rate and a fixed operating setpoint. Power it up and it starts if it can. The run signal comes on when the pump is up to speed. If the pump is jammed, the current goes *WAY UP* - like 6X or 8X the regular current. If the controller has enough sensors to protect itself, it trips and gives a fault code. If not, it melts. Either way, the 'run status' turns off and you can safely shut down your system.

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Next to knowing if the pump is turning, a pressure gauge/switch would be pretty simple.

...

So, perhaps with the right monitoring and a reliable power source, and external pump would not hurt the system reliability.
The external pump, in my opinion, is not as reliable as the built-in pump. But with the measures listed, you're doing all that you can reasonably do to ensure cooling is available for the motor.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:46 PM   #1045 (permalink)
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With the oil system i would say that oil flow, oil pressure, pump turning, pump current etc. really wouldn't be necessary. They all add up to the same thing, an Indication that the drive motor needs to be stopped.
A simple temperature monitor on the motor would give an indication of all those other failure modes. The motor temperature goes up higher than expected from current load, passes a set threshold and then warns the driver.
The oil flow, oil pressure, pump turning and pump current are all warnings that you should get before the temperature goes up. A signal that the car should not get out onto the freeway, or signal that there has been a failure while you are driving and let you know to get to somewhere safe before the car stops. They're kinda nice to have.

To protect the motor from damage, I agree that the motor temperature is all that you really need. Depending on how fast the temperature rises, you can likely do at least some of the warnings with temperature only.
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:37 AM   #1046 (permalink)
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I completely agree.

I'd also add that there's a bit of a philosophical choice involved. Some people feel the idiot lights on their dash are enough, with perhaps the addition water temperature. Getting some people to even look at the fuel gage is a stretch.

Others, like myself, have intimate knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the engine. Knowing things like boost, egt, oil pressure, oil temperature, and rpm, I know how hard the engine is working as well as how hard I can push it. With my experience and that feedback, I can do things like pull a horse trailer over a mountain pass with a 4 cylinder diesel engine. If I didn't know the engine's state of health, I wouldn't dare.

Sure, you can get away with just the stock temperature gage - but remember this: The Toyota MGR was merely intended for supplemental power in the Highlander. If the control system detected the motor was getting too warm, it would be very easy to simply turn it off at some very conservative temperature. This isn't such an easy option when the motor is the *only* power source.

In addition, the oil flow is critical for lubrication. In the OE setup, since the vehicle is **mostly** going forward, that is a safe setup. If the system relies on an external pump, then that pump must **always** work. By the time we've learned that the motor is overheating at freeway speeds, the galling would already have happened to the unlubricated bearings and gears.

I guess I'm a fan of information overload. It's a lot easier to ignore a gage than to accurately guess what's happening when your car is making funny noises.

- E*clipse

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Originally Posted by thingstodo View Post
The oil flow, oil pressure, pump turning and pump current are all warnings that you should get before the temperature goes up. A signal that the car should not get out onto the freeway, or signal that there has been a failure while you are driving and let you know to get to somewhere safe before the car stops. They're kinda nice to have.

To protect the motor from damage, I agree that the motor temperature is all that you really need. Depending on how fast the temperature rises, you can likely do at least some of the warnings with temperature only.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:37 AM   #1047 (permalink)
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I was thinking of the oiling system as just a cooling system for the motor. Totally overlooked the lubrication aspect. So, yes, a more timely warning than just the temperature sensor would be a good idea.
Still, i think tying the temperature sensor into the controller to automatically reduce the power to the motor is a good idea. This would also reduce damage due to the oiling system working but the load on the motor being above the capacity of the oil to remove the heat.
There would be no reliance on the driver to analyse multiple data sources in real time.
This would be especially important if it was not just the EV builder that was going to be driving.
Some drivers will still ignore the check engine light, oil pressure,engine temperature etc. so having the system able to protect itself might be a good thing. Not that i would ever let someone like that drive my car.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:54 AM   #1048 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes View Post
Mouser parts ordered. Priority shipping. About $138 per board in quantity 2.
Just checking that your costs are still covered by the money i already sent.

Also, every time you post a progress update like this i get two reactions simultaneously (ambivalence?).
There is the excitement of the controller getting closer to completion but also panic at the thought of you finishing the controller before i finish the vehicle it is to go in.
Either i am going to have to speed up or you are going to have to slow down.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:50 AM   #1049 (permalink)
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Oh yes. I was just saying the cost of populating the board because I was proud of how cheap it was compared to using 6 vla500-01. For one board it would have been $185. For 2, 138 each. I bet 10 boards would be like 10 bucks each.

Please don't hurry. Now comes the code. It was 99% done before, but un-debugged. I'm going to do a complete rewrite and try to clean it up.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:29 PM   #1050 (permalink)
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I think you did a great job with the drivers - the convenience of the VLA-500's comes at a very steep price. I'm saying this because not only did you keep the price reasonable, but the safeties you built in are brilliant!

Regarding the code debugging, I'm wondering if it would be possible to share that load? Especially when the motor I'm using is going to demand some code changes. I know it might lead to the "hearding cats" -er- programmers, and quality checking outsourced stuff can be a challenge itself. However, there might be some bits that are sharable...

On another note, I finally got a thread going on that motor we've been discussing around here. Hopefully that will help keep things on topic around here a bit better. Of course everyone's welcome.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post443211

Ok, back to discussing an awesome motor controller!

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