"People who do math don't have credit card debt."

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

This was the first book I had read that hinted at the diminishing value of a college education. It has the triple-impact of not only costing a fortune and taking up time that could have been used earning money/advancing career, but the interest on the debt sets a person back financially, well into the future. It's no wonder college is a poor investment for many people.

As we've said before, the value of a college education depends on what you major in. (Not uncommon to see major Silicon Valley companies - IBM, Google, &c paying around $70/year equivalent for an internship.) Just about any type of engineering will get you a more than decent income; Creative Basketweaving, not so much :-)

The student loan thing depends, too. Go to some expensive out-of-state school, major in something that isn't in high demand (e.g. anything where unpaid internships are the norm), and live a middle-class lifestyle on your loans... Well, you'll be stuck with a big debt and no realistic way to pay it off. Go to you local state U, live as cheaply as possible, and work as much as you can, and you'll have those loans paid off in a few years.

As for it taking up time otherwise used for earning money, just how much does that idiot think people make flipping burgers, doing field work, being a motel maid, or any of the other unskilled jobs that are open to people without connections?

[Xist]

How much do R.N.s make with two years of college? I have only seen one place advertise for Speech-Language Pathology Assistants with an Associate's. Everyone else says Bachelor's, but it is possible you could make $40,000 a year with that two-year degree. Estrella Mountain has a program that costs $3,000.

I never looked for scholarships before. I spent a while going through everything I found. It turns out that either they want you to have much better grades than I have earned, be some kind of minority, or it is only for one community college or something, but supposedly many scholarships go unclaimed every year because nobody applied.

[freebeard]

'beard, what are you trying to do?! I stupidly clicked on that and got a big angry screen! Now my principal is going to call my mom and she will ground me!

It's called The Lounge for a reason.

I don't know the Rules. I hear the first one is Stand Up Straight. I suppose now I'll need to look. I'm more interested in his analysis of the deep moral implications of Disney's Pinocchio.

...and the implications of your mom being able to ground you.

[Xist]

What about the principal having Mom's number?



"She was right to do it."

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

As we've said before, the value of a college education depends on what you major in...

The student loan thing depends, too. Go to some expensive out-of-state school, major in something that isn't in high demand (e.g. anything where unpaid internships are the norm), and live a middle-class lifestyle on your loans... Well, you'll be stuck with a big debt and no realistic way to pay it off. Go to you local state U, live as cheaply as possible, and work as much as you can, and you'll have those loans paid off in a few years.

As for it taking up time otherwise used for earning money, just how much does that idiot think people make flipping burgers, doing field work, being a motel maid, or any of the other unskilled jobs that are open to people without connections?

Which is why my comment was that college is not only unhelpful, but detrimental to many people, but not all. The main problem is that people lack focus. If there is no particular goal in mind that requires a college education, then it's not likely to be a net benefit. My wife went through undergrad and recently got her masters while completing a 2 year physicians assistant program. This was worthwhile because the occupation requires the education and it pays well enough to offset the time spent getting there.

That said, I barely graduated highschool with a 2.6 GPA, went to prison, and make more money than my wife. Getting an early start in a career has many advantages. Fast food and other minimum wage jobs aren't careers; they are starter jobs for highschool kids and people who are new to the country as a way to establish work history and make a little money.

The traditional school model is ancient and needs to change. There is no reason why students should gather by the hundreds, paying a sub-par professor thousands of dollars to lecture them. I can watch a video of a top professor in their field give a lecture online for free. Education needs to adapt to superior modes of learning and charge a lower fee.

Originally Posted by Xist

I never looked for scholarships before. I spent a while going through everything I found. It turns out that either they want you to have much better grades than I have earned, be some kind of minority, or it is only for one community college or something, but supposedly many scholarships go unclaimed every year because nobody applied.

Just claim yourself as a minority. Why not? We're accepting of people who identify as their opposite sex, so who is to say you cannot identify with some other ethnicity? I always list myself as native american when taking those racist surveys. I'm not native to anywhere else.

I haven't listened to this Joe Rogan podcast yet, so I cannot comment on the content, but I assume it's a good overview of Jordan's philosophy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T7pUEZfgdI

[Xist]

I am a quarter Guatemalan, so I am a minority minority. I forget the exact questions, but when I fill out applications I often put Hispanic and white. I just think it is weird they often have Hispanic and Caucasian as mutually-exclusive.

I am not sure a scholarship program would seriously consider me when my real name is Whitey McWhiteface.

(That Guatemalan blood is not strong in me)

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Xist

I am a quarter Guatemalan, so I am a minority minority. I forget the exact questions, but when I fill out applications I often put Hispanic and white. I just think it is weird they often have Hispanic and Caucasian as mutually-exclusive.

I am not sure a scholarship program would seriously consider me when my real name is Whitey McWhiteface.

(That Guatemalan blood is not strong in me)

Which underscores my point that those who are most "racially sensitive" are the most racist. We are all extreme minorities because we all are unique individuals, sharing the exact same background with nobody. Attempting to categorize people into minority groups is an effort in futility, as you point out with your 25% guatemalan example. I was born into a poor (US poor) family with 25% Japanese and a mix of other bloodlines, barely graduated highschool, went to prison, and can hold my breath for 2 minutes without practice. What kind of minority am I? There is no point in attempting to place me into a box of other similar people.

If I were to run a fair and non-racist, non-genderist applicant sorting process, I would have racial, gender, and other identifying information hidden from the application, and score it based on relevant criteria only.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Xist

How much do R.N.s make with two years of college?

I thought RN was a 4 year degree? But around here, the average seems to be upwards of $70K/yr: Nurse Salary in Nevada - Nurse Salary Guide

Originally Posted by redpoint5

That said, I barely graduated highschool with a 2.6 GPA, went to prison, and make more money than my wife. Getting an early start in a career has many advantages. Fast food and other minimum wage jobs aren't careers; they are starter jobs for highschool kids and people who are new to the country as a way to establish work history and make a little money.

Sure, some people can get a decent job without college &c. Like for instance my neighbor's kid (mid-30s now), who's making somewhere in 6 figures as an electric lineman. But he had a father who could get him into the union apprenticeship program. Without connections like that, or more ability at BS-ing (AKA self-promotion) than most people have, it's pretty hard to get out of the low-level jobs.

[freebeard]

It was a long time ago, but I started out $1K ahead (earned picking strawberries and working in a feed mill, got a total of $300 assistance (because I had graduated in the 99 1/2 percentile of all high-school seniors that year — thanks, I guess), graduated in five years $1K in debt and had that paid off before I reported for duty.

The only thing I got from the degree was an assignment that allowed me to return alive from the one-time Republic of South Vietnam. It was mooted by my being a Veteran.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

The main problem is that people lack focus. If there is no particular goal in mind that requires a college education, then it's not likely to be a net benefit.

I started out in Mechanical Engineering, transferred to Architecture, and wound up with a B.S. in Humanities & Soc. Science. Worthless, but I got a job in IT in 1980, no degrees in that back then.

I wanted to study video editing on the GI Bill but the community college only offered TV repair so I tried that for a while.

Sure, some people can get a decent job without college &c.

My son went from high school to six years in the Navy as a radar technician. Then into aircraft instrumentation in the Seattle area. He's moved from one job to another with IIRC not a single day of unemployment.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Sure, some people can get a decent job without college. Like for instance my neighbor's kid (mid-30s now), who's making somewhere in 6 figures as an electric lineman. But he had a father who could get him into the union apprenticeship program. Without connections like that, or more ability at BS-ing (AKA self-promotion) than most people have, it's pretty hard to get out of the low-level jobs.

I'm not sure how that addresses my point that college is a waste for many people. If everyone had a 4 year degree, it would be like nobody having a 4 year degree. This is evident in that my having graduated elementary has given me no advantage in the workplace because nearly everyone has graduated elementary.

Someone still has to perform low wage work, and it generally falls to those with lower skills, regardless of what paperwork is attached to their name. Graduating college is a huge advantage when few people do, but it's an extremely tiny advantage when most people do.

Anecdotes are worthless. I know a girl who holds 3 bachelors degrees, but works as a nanny.

I maintain that school is among the worst uses of time and money if you don't have a purpose for the degree. Degrees aren't the golden ticket they used to be because half of kids these days are getting those golden tickets (and they are as ignorant as ever).