PHEV more environmental than EV

[cowmeat]

Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The average commute in the US is 30 miles, so the RAV4 Prime's 40 mile EV range is ideally suited to cover a majority of trips.

That’s what the marketing info said for the volt

Technically my 2012 Volt was perfect for my commute at 35 estimated Ev miles - I travel 38 miles a day and I got to where I could easily make it on EV only, my EV range showed 50 miles at one time

My 2018 Volt says it has 53 miles estimated range but with my commute it will do about 75 to 80 miles on EV if I really baby it. I could plug it in every two days if I had a 220 charger

But I have been eyeing full EVs lately

[Stubby79]

I think I'd agree with the original post's point.

Of course, you can't really compare an ICE vehicle to an EV when we're actually talking about a PHEV...the CO2 emissions for production would be notably increased if you're plugging in an electric motor and 16KWH of battery...it would take an EV considerably less time to overtake - or get under - the PHEV in CO2 emissions.

[Piotrsko]

Last I heard (Wednesday, Thursday?), if you take into consideration all of the production of CO, EV's are marginally cleaner to use in total, like within 3% lifetime. Im not sure if that lifetime included current scrapping methods in which the EV thereby looses the advantage.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by cowmeat

Technically my 2012 Volt was perfect for my commute at 35 estimated Ev miles - I travel 38 miles a day and I got to where I could easily make it on EV only, my EV range showed 50 miles at one time

My 2018 Volt says it has 53 miles estimated range but with my commute it will do about 75 to 80 miles on EV if I really baby it. I could plug it in every two days if I had a 220 charger

But I have been eyeing full EVs lately

The RAV4 from what I’ve heard is a little harder to hypermile than the Volt.

Whereas the Volts Highway fuel economy “mostly” matched EPA combined the RAV4 is heavily optimized for city fuel economy ,
This disconnect will result in heavy traffic and 25mph drivers to be estatic while highway cruzers might be less impressed.

The only real sticking point will be winter economy if Toyota has improved this it will be a saving grace despite the low high speed economy

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Yes but a hypothetical 16kwhr EV would sell for what $5000?

No one would buy such a limited new BEV in today’s market



That’s what the marketing info said for the volt

A small Chevy car isn't a big seller in any shape or form. Toyota is smart to take their #1 selling vehicle, maybe the 3rd or 4th best selling vehicle in the US and make a PHEV. I bet a PHWV F150 would outsell the Volt by a factor of 10 if it were available.

[jakobnev]

The RAV4 is a bit of a pig, it wouldn't be a usable pure EV at 16kWh. (Needs 4-5 times that)

The drawback for earlier PHEVs was higher battery degradation, the Outlander being perhaps the most famous for this, how are the newer ones?

Perhaps ironically, the best new tech for PHEVs is Teslas tabless batteries

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by jakobnev

The RAV4 is a bit of a pig, it wouldn't be a usable pure EV at 16kWh. (Needs 4-5 times that)

The drawback for earlier PHEVs was higher battery degradation, the Outlander being perhaps the most famous for this, how are the newer ones?

Perhaps ironically, the best new tech for PHEVs is Teslas tabless batteries

Good point. I haven't heard conclusive descriptions of how battery thermal management is performed.

Here's one blurb "Similarly to the Prius Prime (a.k.a. Prius Plug-In Hybrid), the compact crossover features a heat pump air conditioning system and a hot water circuit. The refrigerant of the air conditioning system cools the battery whenever needed. "

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

A small Chevy car isn't a big seller in any shape or form. Toyota is smart to take their #1 selling vehicle, maybe the 3rd or 4th best selling vehicle in the US and make a PHEV. I bet a PHWV F150 would outsell the Volt by a factor of 10 if it were available.

I've always said the industry started at the wrong end of the automotive segment to build hybrids. It started with the Honda Insight, which was the smallest and lightest 2-seater coupe they offered. Many on here are getting the same fuel economy without the electric motor because it's built efficiently to begin with. The return on expense for all the electric bits is infinite on a vehicle like that.

On the other hand, trucks have a huge amount of weight where recovering momentum back into a battery is more useful. It reduces fuel consumption, reduces brake wear, and allows a downsized engine to be used. Payback on the electrics would be much faster with an F150 since the fuel and maintenance savings are so much greater.

I can't wait for a PHEV pickup.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

That’s what the marketing info said for the volt

GM's marketing for the Volt caused a lot of confusion for PHEVs. The range-extended electric car description made a lot of people think it was a $35,000 EV with a 35 mile range. I think it hurt EV's reputation as well.

Automakers still struggle to explain to people the benefits of a PHEV. People are fixated on completing their commute on electric only when they would get the majority of the benefits with a much smaller battery. The biggest issue with my 2nd gen Prii was that the battery was too small. On even moderately long downhills it would fully charge and then I would have to switch to hill mode to increase compression braking. In stop and go traffic it the A/C would deplete the battery and cause the engine to turn on to charge it again.

Cars like the current Prius Prime are the prefect blend to me. A big enough battery to eliminate the problems above and cover a large percentage of miles on EV. The modest battery size reduces cost, weight, and the lost cargo area of a large battery.

As redpoint said in the OP - if the goal is to reduce CO2 and smog then hybrids are the way to go. At least with current battery technology.

I also see a place for short range EVs with a 100 - 150 mile range but they have been a sales failure. People don't seem to get the idea of a couple pairing a city use EV with a gas car for road trips even though most US families have multiple cars.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I've always said the industry started at the wrong end of the automotive segment to build hybrids. It started with the Honda Insight, which was the smallest and lightest 2-seater coupe they offered. Many on here are getting the same fuel economy without the electric motor because it's built efficiently to begin with. The return on expense for all the electric bits is infinite on a vehicle like that.

Maybe if it had gone more radical into engine downsizing in order to benefit more from the IMA, it could eventually provide a better ROI for its buyers.

On the other hand, trucks have a huge amount of weight where recovering momentum back into a battery is more useful. It reduces fuel consumption, reduces brake wear, and allows a downsized engine to be used. Payback on the electrics would be much faster with an F150 since the fuel and maintenance savings are so much greater.

Even though I wouldn't hold my breath for the average Joe to embrace the hybrid truck bandwagon so quickly, it would undeniably become a sensible option for business operators and fleet managers. On a sidenote, when GM released hybrid versions for the Silverado and Sierra 1500 and for the Tahoe, Escalade and Yukon it did surprise me they retained a V8 instead of using the Vortec 4300 which used to be standard in the Silverado and Sierra 1500.