Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2020, 02:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,326

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 26.38 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.5 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,801
Thanked 3,212 Times in 2,393 Posts
PHEV more environmental than EV

I've posted these thoughts elsewhere, but decided to consolidate them here. My prediction despite sales figures to the contrary is that hybrid and plug-in hybrid sales will increase in the coming years.

Hybrids have been on the market for 21 years, and yet their market share has dropped from 2013 to 2019 accounting for only 2% of US vehicle sales.

"Hybrids captured 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2013 but were at 2% in 2019. Plug-in hybrids and all-electrics combined accounted for 2.1% of the light vehicle market in 2019."

Most attention has been given to full EV, with hardly any attention on PHEVs. This despite the fact that the #2 highest selling plug-in vehicle is the Prius Prime, a PHEV. Only the Tesla Model 3 outsells it.

The RAV4 Prime PHEV is out now and boasts 300 horsepower, AWD, 40 EV mile range, and 40 MPG in hybrid mode. Even more slick is that Toyota put a 16 kWh battery in it, which is the minimum size that qualifies for the full federal tax credit ($7,500). That works out to a $469/kWh subsidy. Assuming Toyota can build that capacity for $150/kWh, that represents a $5,000 profit.

By minimizing the most costly component, the battery, and maximizing the utilization of the battery on most every trip, it reduces overall cost of ownership.

Maximizing battery utilization is why PHEVs are more environmentally friendly than EVs at the moment. We have a battery constrained market, meaning the limit to EV production is battery manufacturing. Therefore, it would be more environmentally friendly to spread a given battery supply among 10 PHEVs that travel 80% of miles in EV than to build a single EV that travels 100% of miles in EV.


Finally, EVs produce more CO2 in their manufacturing process than an ICE equivalent, meaning it takes thousands of traveled miles before an EV come out ahead on CO2 emissions.



Are we going to mostly skip PHEVs and hybrids, or will they become more prevalent in the coming years?

__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to redpoint5 For This Useful Post:
California98Civic (10-02-2020), Hersbird (10-04-2020)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-02-2020, 07:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
Cyborg ECU
 
California98Civic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Coastal Southern California
Posts: 6,092

Black and Green - '98 Honda Civic DX Coupe
Team Honda
90 day: 66.42 mpg (US)

Black and Red - '00 Nashbar Custom built eBike
90 day: 3671.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,307
Thanked 2,023 Times in 1,380 Posts
I think a lot depends on battery tech. Currently, solid state and graphene seem more like unobtanium than real possibilities. However, if anything like the promises that hype masters for those technologies make ever becomes real, well maybe full EVs are no longer battery-limited on the production side.
__________________
See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.



  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to California98Civic For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (10-02-2020)
Old 10-02-2020, 07:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,326

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 26.38 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.5 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,801
Thanked 3,212 Times in 2,393 Posts
I'm always open (and optimistic) to the future to change the calculus, but we can only take action based on what is currently available. To the best I can figure with current capabilities, hybrid and PHEV is the way to go.

My assumption is that consumers are still very in the dark on what a PHEV is, and what the advantages can be. Most probably think a PHEV has to be plugged in and confuse it with an EV. I had plenty of people ask me what happens when I ran out the battery on my Prius plug-in.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2020, 12:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,905

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 213
Thanked 2,924 Times in 2,280 Posts
I think a lot depends on gas prices.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2020, 10:16 AM   #5 (permalink)
Growin a stash
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 589
Thanks: 341
Thanked 205 Times in 153 Posts
You said the RAV4 has a 16 kWh battery. That's practically an EV already. Imo, phev's are done
__________________


2015 Nissan Leaf S, 164 mpge
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ME_Andy For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (10-03-2020)
Old 10-03-2020, 10:25 AM   #6 (permalink)
EcoModding Newb
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,326

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 26.38 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 28.5 mpg (US)
Thanks: 2,801
Thanked 3,212 Times in 2,393 Posts
The average commute in the US is 30 miles, so the RAV4 Prime's 40 mile EV range is ideally suited to cover a majority of trips.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2020, 02:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 8,905

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 213
Thanked 2,924 Times in 2,280 Posts
On the subject of "using EVs to reduce CO2 emissions" is pointless. The oil industry will just export that gasoline to S-hole countries.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (10-03-2020)
Old 10-03-2020, 05:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 8,333
Thanks: 0
Thanked 906 Times in 802 Posts
Besides the raw materials requirement for a larger battery-powered range, another aspect I would consider is the suitability of an ICE to resort to some organic matter as a feedstock for biofuels such as ethanol and biomethane, instead of simply leaving it to rot away while releasing raw methane into the atmosphere. In the end, the ICE is still more relevant to the sustainability than some folks seem to believe.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cRiPpLe_rOoStEr For This Useful Post:
Piotrsko (10-05-2020), redpoint5 (10-03-2020)
Old 10-04-2020, 10:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Missoula, MT
Posts: 2,136

Dark Egg - '12 VW Touareg TDI Sport AWD
90 day: 25.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 191
Thanked 901 Times in 619 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The average commute in the US is 30 miles, so the RAV4 Prime's 40 mile EV range is ideally suited to cover a majority of trips.
People that live in our city I'm sure average less than 20 miles a day. I only go about 7-10 and live on the edge of town. There are thousands that live one direction or the other in the 5 valleys that make up our hub where 30 miles wouldn't be enough, but more than 1/2 the population is right here in the city limits. But the people here also like to take long trips out into the mountains, take long dirt roads, lose cell phone coverage for days, let alone be able to find a place to charge. That makes the PHEV, especially an upright AWD one, ideal. I especially love how Toyota is working the AWD. I hope Chevy does something similar, combine a Volt, a Malibu hybrid, and a new Trailblazer. Ford needs to get AWD on their plug in hybrid Escape and Edge.

A EV is great as a 2nd or 3rd car, but most people around here want a little more freedom than a pure EV offers.
__________________

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2020, 07:15 AM   #10 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,323

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 347
Thanked 661 Times in 494 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ME_Andy View Post
You said the RAV4 has a 16 kWh battery. That's practically an EV already. Imo, phev's are done
Yes but a hypothetical 16kwhr EV would sell for what $5000?

No one would buy such a limited new BEV in today’s market

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The average commute in the US is 30 miles, so the RAV4 Prime's 40 mile EV range is ideally suited to cover a majority of trips.
That’s what the marketing info said for the volt

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com