PHEV Prius retrofit

[theunchosen]

Being a Honda person I would still go with the NSX at 20-24 MPG. Then I'd supercharge it and crank out 500 HP for 2,700 lbs.

Not eco friendly in anyway.

Targa top, fast, handles, reliable and awesome.

[jamesqf]

You know you're all still stuck in the "they're different because if they weren't it'd ruin my argument" groove, and I'm still waiting to hear some reasonable reasons why they're different. Why, for instance, it's reasonable to pay $20K or so extra for a car in order to get such intangibles as "superior fit & finish" (which I've never really noticed, BTW), or for extras like heated & air conditioned seats, which are options I might pay more not to have. Or for pointless things like a GPS. In the plane, sure, especially if I were doing occasional IFR, but in a car? Why, fer gawdsakes?

You don't seem to balk at paying extra for all these other options, or ask what their payback periods are going to be, so why should a hybrid be any different?

[theunchosen]

. . .because I would rather have a 300 HP engine if I am going to shell out 20K.

You pay lots of money for neat gadgets. Not for economical ones. It's a self-defeating purpose. a 23,000 USD BASE normal car with slightly better fuel economy.

I buy used period. If I want fuel economy I go get an 88 CRX for like 1200 at the scrapyard and bring it to driveability with another grand. Then I get the CRX designed for maximum fuel economy and I get to change whatever I want to increase that if at all possible. There is really no point to pay 10x that for less gas mileage if your argument is economics.

I know your answer. It's not just about economics you want a decent interior and other creature comforts that modern cars offer over the 88 CRX. I have no problems with that. But Just as you sacrifice some MPG for a newer car. . .I sacrifice lots of MPG for a "super-car" that costs less than your econo car.

It's really a weak argument. People like their beamers over the prius because they like large powerful sohpisticated engines, people like the prius over others because they like its efficiency and I like the NSX. . .well if you have to ask I can't tell you.

It's really impossible to argue any car is better than another unless of course you are comparing to identical cars in every way except one has an engine thats more powerful and more economical or more economical and as powerful or more powerful and as economical. Only when everything else is held the same can you compare two items.

Some people here favor 0-60 times opposed to MPG(not that they don't like MPG just 0-60 is more important), while others its the reverse.

It's purely preference. If toyota made a Prius shell that did not have any of the hybrid traits and had a more powerful less efficient engine you couldn't really make an argument that one is better.

You can always make the argument one is more economical, faster(acceleration or top speed), better handling, or any specific element because those ignore all the other factors and rely simply on data with no margin for subjective decisions.

[theunchosen]

I guess I never addressed your question.

The beamers and supercars have handling that the Prius will never touch. It's the reason I own a Del Sol instead of a CRX, it has handling comparable or better than most BMW cars. I sacrifice total car height lose ground clearance and gain handling. I also gain lots of MPG and cheaper parts but those are commonalities with the CRX and so are out of that decision.

People take one aspect of a car and thats the most important(handling, horsepower, economy, maintenance costs, sports-car feel are the list for me) and then they decide between the candidates based on the rest of the characteristics.

The Beamer crowd prefers handling, power, FE, sports-car, luxury but focus heavily on the first two. That also said what you ideally like over what you do is different. I don't drive an NSX because it has high twenties on a good day for FE, and replacing parts on it is very difficult(rear-midengine) and I can't currently afford a third car at the moment for just fun.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Back to a real argument. You can get a Honda Civic brand spanking new with every feature and option they offer(including some really hideous ones, remote engine starters and a first-aid medipack) and it costs 29,000 rounded up. Thats with leather evertyhing navigation, blah blah blah. oh and its highway is 36(its high end biased)

The basic Prius looks like you get nav, and leather and beyond that someone else will have to fill me in. Sorry Toyota's Build your own Prius function does not work. for 24,000 and 48 highway.

The civic had replacement wheels for a grand, moonroof, starter, partial bra, that apllique to the whole car that keeps it from getting scratched, film covers for the door joints. . .all kinds of things that nobody puts on a car from the dealer. The prius might have a moonroof. . .can't tell Toyota is not showing it off at all if it does. The point is the base civic starts at 15 and the deluxe everything coated in layers of leather is 23K. You could just get leather for 17 and install GPs yourself(400 bucks once and 200 a year? save yourself a couple grand).
It's 12 MPG essentially for 5,000 dollars. . .If gas were 20$ a gallon you could get a ROI the first year. at 4 a gallon it takes 5 years.
Another issue to consider is. . .the prius is relatively new. If something like the Ford Taurus effect were to show up in the Prius. . .it will take a while for it to show.

Once again, you are comparing apples to oranges. The Prius is in the Accord size class.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by MazdaMatt

Those reasons are all to do with either money, the coolness of efficiency or being a hippie. Well driving a hybrid won't save you money compared to driving a similar car with a cheaper drive train.

I think the best you can say is that it may not. For instance a Camry hybrid runs ~$4500 more than a comparable Camry w/ a conventional drivetrain, and even w/ gas at $2/gallon (inflation adjusted) for the next 13+years over ~200k miles they would both cost the same, and when we toss in maintenance it's in the favor of the hybrid. If gas averages more than $2/gallon over the next decade+ then the cost is clearly in the favor of the hybrid version. It's closer if we look at something like a Civic hybrid compared to a conventional version w/ a similar trim level (eg a AT LX) but still lifetime costs are close, so it really depends on what gas prices do over the next ten years.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

. . .because I would rather have a 300 HP engine if I am going to shell out 20K.

Whereas I don't want a 300 HP engine at all. The Lotus Elise does quite well on 189 HP, my old Sprite had around 70 IIRC...

You pay lots of money for neat gadgets. Not for economical ones. It's a self-defeating purpose. a 23,000 USD BASE normal car with slightly better fuel economy.

And of course a hybrid power train couldn't possibly be considered the sort of neat gadget that people would be willing to pay extra for, now could it?

I buy used period. If I want fuel economy I go get an 88 CRX for like 1200 at the scrapyard and bring it to driveability with another grand. Then I get the CRX designed for maximum fuel economy and I get to change whatever I want to increase that if at all possible. There is really no point to pay 10x that for less gas mileage if your argument is economics.

But that's just what I've been saying: the argument for buying a Prius (or an Insight, in my case) is NOT economics, any more than it is for buying a BMW or Lotus, so why make a big deal about the payback period?

I do go along with the buying used, though. That's how I bought the Insight, and every other car I've ever bought, including the CRX I had just previous. Though I do get one thing from the Insight that I never had with the CRX: I never worry about passing the annual smog check :-)

I know your answer. It's not just about economics you want a decent interior and other creature comforts that modern cars offer over the 88 CRX.

Sorry, but that's not MY answer, because I don't really want most of those "creature comforts". I'd be happier if my Insight didn't have e.g. power windows, or a remote door lock that I never use.

[theunchosen]

alright then, the reason people cose cars is like I said, we pick one value thats most important and then cascade in other ones.

Yours, and please correct me if I am wrong I don't want to offend, I think is simplicity/efficiency? In which case a Prius or another hybrid is a good choice(used, and never new ^_^).

I'd like the NSX, not for its style or interior, but because it has amazing handling, and is fast. Within a given price range those are the two biggest concerns for me. Once I have those I'll look at increasing MPG and decreasing maintenance but speed and handling are the reasons I love driving. I don't speed, it's against the law, but I thoroughly enjoy being able to reach the speed limit as fast as possible sometimes. I also grew up in the country and have had twisty roads for miles to get anywhere so I learned to enjoy handling the same way. Once those two decisions are made the interior and other parts are bonuses.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Yours, and please correct me if I am wrong I don't want to offend, I think is simplicity/efficiency? In which case a Prius or another hybrid is a good choice(used, and never new ^_^).

Not quite. Simplicity/efficiency is important (especially when taken in the Lotus sense), but the most important factor in my car-buying decision is that it be a two-seater. Helps to be a hatchback, so I can get skis, bike, dog, and suchlike in it, and has to have a manual transmission.

Even if the Prius got twice the mpg, it still wouldn't be high on my buy list because at heart it's still a stodgy 4/5 passenger sedan. I'm just glad Honda made the Insight the way it did.

[theunchosen]

Two seater is definitely high on my list, but I kind of coupled it in with sports car feel.

More or less you can't argue one car is better than another. They may be better in aspects(they might even be better in every measureable aspect), but its really personal preference.

I can argue with my father whats a superior car because our opinions in cars is very similar, so its like I am talking to myself, but even there we experience breakdown in values for cars.

Here, just because we are all eco-concerned doesn't mean we will agree on a car in any fashion.