PHEV Prius retrofit

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by MazdaMatt

Apples and oranges, my friend. A similar SMALL CAR to the prius fully loaded is under 20k. A similar bigass luxury landyaght with a hybrid engine is more expensive than a bigass luxury landyaght that guzzles gas.

Dollar for dollar you get WAY more car for the price of a pruis if you're shopping non-hybrid. Also, the gas-money break-even on a car similar to the pruis is VERY long term. Therefore, the only reason to buy one is that you're a hippie. That's all i'm saying...

btw, I love the term "big hat, no cattle".

I agree not to compare to bigass/luxury/hummeresque cars... But the prius isn't exactly a "small" car. It's classified as a midsize, as such, it should be compared with other midsize vehicles... Camry, Accord, Fusion, Malibu?, etc.

The most direct comparison is likely with the Camry - same company and likely similar mfr techniques/costs, same country, same size class, potentially some parts sharing.... 09 Camry (21/31) ~$19K, 09 Prius (48/45) is ~$22K (both starting prices). $3,000 buys a significant amount of gas, even at a $3 price.

I had a chance to attend the SF International Auto Show on Saturday, and spend about 15 minutes watching the CalCars technicians do an on-site live demo, retrofitting a second gen Toyota Prius with their auxilliary plug-in lithium-Ion battery pack. I don't own a Prius, but certainly was impressed.

I think I remember seeing them do one at MakerFaire a couple years ago... It was pretty sweet I also used to work down the street from Luscious Garage which had a PHEV Prius in front of their shop.

[metromizer]

One thing is for certain, with as many Toyota Prius' on the road here in California, there are a greater number of creative minds working on solutions to bettering an already pretty decent product. The shear numbers help the business case's ROI numbers as well. This aux battery option is just one, I can imagine there are several other ideas that will be unvailed within the next year... <budget battery replacement through some refurbishment program perhaps>

don't tell anyone, but some racer friends of mine have been working on one such project... spy photo, below

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by MazdaMatt

Apples and oranges, my friend. A similar SMALL CAR to the prius fully loaded is under 20k.

Only because you get to define what makes them similar :-) Putting aside claims about the Prius being a small car (not by MY standards, it isn't), you can easily find cars - Lexus, BMW 6-series, etc - that are of similar size & seating, yet go for twice the price. So what makes THEM not similar to a Prius, other than intentional "they can't be similar 'cause it would ruin my argument" cherry-picking?

"Dollar for dollar you get WAY more car for the price of a pruis if you're shopping non-hybrid. Also, the gas-money break-even on a car similar to the pruis is VERY long term. Therefore, the only reason to buy one is that you're a hippie."

Again, what's more? Maybe this makes me a "hippie" by your definition, but with cars I go with the "less is more" philosophy. Though more accurately it's the Colin Chapman/Lotus philosophy, and there's a great example of a car that's a lot smaller than a Prius, but will cost you twice as much.

Then there's the whole "gas-money break-even" fallacy. It's like asking the guy who buys a Lotus when he expects to break even on time saved in his daily commute: it only demonstrates that you just don't understand at all.

btw, I love the term "big hat, no cattle".

Not original with me, of course :-)

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by MazdaMatt

Apples and oranges, my friend. A similar SMALL CAR to the prius fully loaded is under 20k. A similar bigass luxury landyaght with a hybrid engine is more expensive than a bigass luxury landyaght that guzzles gas.

Comparing a Prius to a small car is just as much apples and oranges because the Prius is a mid-size car. In terms of specs the Prius has slightly less interior room than a Camry and slightly more cargo room, so it's roughly equivalent w/ different proportions. Compared to a small car like the Corolla it has more in the way both cargo/interior room, so that comparison is somewhat disingenuous. In terms of trim level it's roughly equivalent to a LE, so considering the best we can do for an apples to apples comparison it doesn't command more than a couple grand premium over a similar vehicle.

[MazdaMatt]

Okay, sorry to slip on the size category of the prius. I consider my protege5 to be a "small car" because i used to drive a 1992 Oldsmobile ninety-eight regency elite, and back then, that was called a mid-sized car.

And again, you can't just say that pruis sans-hybrid is the same as a doubley-priced bmw or lexus. They are completely different. The bimmer is a FAR more refined car with FAR better performance, FAR more comfort and FAR more luxury features. The pruis is a pretty 'basic' car. So yeah, go ahead and compare to a Camry, but leave the luxury sportscars out.

And please please don't compare a beutiful piece of racing engineering, a Lotus, to a Prius. And please don't think that Joe Suit driving a Lotus is the intended audience. BTW, an Elise gets better mileage than most "econo" cars.

[Daox]

I completely disagree with you Matt. I think the Prius is a FAR more refined car. No luxury or sports car can even come close to touching its efficiency. Why should I care about power and performance for daily driving? Do I need to accelerate to 60 in under 8 seconds? No, I don't. Its a complete waste. Just because a car can accelerate fast with heated leather seats does not make it a more refined car.

Now, if I was looking for a track car that would be different. The Prius would be very far down on the list. But people don't need a track car for daily driving. Still, some people seem to think otherwise.

[MazdaMatt]

and that makes you a hippie... but understand that i don't mean that in a bad way at all.

The refinement of a BMW is far beyond its leather seats and large engine. Some pretty crappy cars have those features. It is about fit and finish. Steering feel. Ability to handle adverse conditions with traction control, stability management and abs. Running at autobahn speeds and still being whisper quiet. Suspension that is built of higher quality and more precice engineering. A shifter that 'just feels better' because they took the time to make it that way. These are the things that people who are buying a bmw are paying for. You don't get these out of a prius. I'm guessing you've never driven a fully loaded recent model bimmer.

Put a hybrid drive train in a car as nice as a bimmer and you will be spending more than the bimmer without one.

What i'm sayin is, spending extra money to use less gas is a hippie thing to do. I'm not saying its a bad thing.

My expectation is that as the electric and hybrid techs advance, they will become cheaper than their gas counterparts in overall operating cost over the life of the vehicle.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by MazdaMatt

mass market hybrids are still for rich hippies.

Wow, there's a sophisticated opinion!

Have you even seen this thread, which suggests there may be multiple reasons - the majority of which aren't even "hippie-ish" - that a person might want to drive a hybrid?

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...here-6241.html

Not 100% related to choosing hybrid, but you can connect the dots.

[MazdaMatt]

Those reasons are all to do with either money, the coolness of efficiency or being a hippie. Well driving a hybrid won't save you money compared to driving a similar car with a cheaper drive train. I suppose hybrids are then for hippies OR geeks... I'm a geek, but i'm not making enough money to justify the added cost of a hybrid.

I'm not trying to offend anybody that thinks that hybrids are great, i'm just saying that they aren't outselling ICE cars for good reason... if they were "simply better" and not just for hippies and geeks, then they'd be ruling the auto market.

[theunchosen]

I'm going to have to agree with Matt here.

I'm a huge fan of the Acura NSX. I have two friends who own and drive them every day. I do not know what the expected lifetime of a prius is but I know for a fact their engines and drive train have had no adjustments or maintenance other than standard oil changes for trans and engine. Doing that yourself is still only going to run you 20ish bucks a change for every 2,000 miles so over 220,000 miles break pads and basic realignments coming in at another 20 per 20,000 your total vehicle maintenance for 220,000 miles is well under 4,000 dollars.

Neither friend bought theirs new. Bought them used for 20 grand and 50-70k miles. If I had the choice between a Prius and we will call it fully loaded with leather seats, warmers, air conditioned seats, free GPS navigation, and whatever else you want to tack on and call it normal fine, I still would chose a 96 NSX with 100,000 miles. Very few cars on the planet compare to the NSX's ability to handle. I bet I could roll a prius. I can't roll an NSX unless the governor is off and its charged or I've got lots of space to get to 155 MPH and then try and turn at 90 degrees. Even then I predict it would just slide.

Back to a real argument. You can get a Honda Civic brand spanking new with every feature and option they offer(including some really hideous ones, remote engine starters and a first-aid medipack) and it costs 29,000 rounded up. Thats with leather evertyhing navigation, blah blah blah. oh and its highway is 36(its high end biased)

The basic Prius looks like you get nav, and leather and beyond that someone else will have to fill me in. Sorry Toyota's Build your own Prius function does not work. for 24,000 and 48 highway.

The civic had replacement wheels for a grand, moonroof, starter, partial bra, that apllique to the whole car that keeps it from getting scratched, film covers for the door joints. . .all kinds of things that nobody puts on a car from the dealer. The prius might have a moonroof. . .can't tell Toyota is not showing it off at all if it does. The point is the base civic starts at 15 and the deluxe everything coated in layers of leather is 23K. You could just get leather for 17 and install GPs yourself(400 bucks once and 200 a year? save yourself a couple grand).
It's 12 MPG essentially for 5,000 dollars. . .If gas were 20$ a gallon you could get a ROI the first year. at 4 a gallon it takes 5 years.
Another issue to consider is. . .the prius is relatively new. If something like the Ford Taurus effect were to show up in the Prius. . .it will take a while for it to show.
Just now the oldest Priuses(prieces?) are turning 11. We'll say the average person puts down 30,000 miles a year(12,000-15,000 is what it really is) it would still take 4 years to catch something like the Taurus effect or in real conditions it would take 8-10 years.

So far it looks like the Prius will escape that but test conditions favored continuous driving to simulate 180,000 miles. At continuous driving the batteries remain constantly charged. Park it overnight in the cold and then try and run it and it will cause a drain on the charge pack possibly below its tolerance threshold to maintain integrity. That said replacing the power pack for 2,500 every ten years is not bad but you only save money on operating cost(gasoline and repairs) if gas stays above 2.50 otherwise the gas engine is cheaper to operate and maintain.