Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-16-2008, 03:43 AM   #11 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
hal9999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Same Planet as yours
Posts: 30
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Harder cold starting in VERY cold winter temperatures.
This was true with the older generation of diesel engines and less quality diesel fuel.
I own myself a diesel and had never such problems and never heard anyone complain about this the few last years. The Scandinavians have too – 25 C temperatures but thanks additives, which the fuel companies add in the winter to diesel, the problem has disappeared.

Your economic analysis is absolutely correct. The fuel swap between the US and the EU sadly doesn’t meet the demand of diesel in Europe. And this will continue for a while because of the overproduction of normal fuel.

Quote:
I've been in cities full of 10+ years old diesel cars and it's not pretty.
Fortunately the US and Canada wont have this problem thanks to the latest diesel technologies. :-)

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 12-16-2008, 04:26 AM   #12 (permalink)
EcoModding Dilatant
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 262

Volvo - '00 Volvo V70 XC AWD SE
90 day: 27.7 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4
Thanked 26 Times in 16 Posts
I have to disagree that diesels aren't affected by really cold temperatures anymore. When things get cold you aren't going to be able to use any diesel fuel (#2 fuel oil) - it will gel in the fuel tank. Biodiesel is even worse. I have to start worrying about my biodiesel fuel in the 30s(F). What is used in place of diesel fuel in very cold areas is pure kerosene, #1 fuel oil. It may be a fine point, but kerosene is not technically diesel fuel.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2008, 06:08 AM   #13 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Funny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 409

Eco-Fit - '13 Honda Fit Base
90 day: 37.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 30
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
One of the main reasons Diesels last longer is due to the air and oil filters that they employ. The Engine also maintains a 100:1 ratio of air to fuel, thus reducing the amount of junk that gets into the sump via blow-by. I would get a European D-4D Toyota diesel for the Rolling Lemon if I: A) could find one. B) Had the Money for it. and C) could install it myself.

It's not a question of whether Americans want diesels, we are more informed now and DO WANT THEM. The tree-huggers (no offense to those of us conservationists on this site, I am talking about the hippies that go for week long excursions to become dendrophiliacs) are who prevent the technology coming to America, and therefore also plant the mindset of filthy diesels.

[/Rant]
__________________
American by right
Ecomodder by choice
Hypermiler by necessity

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2008, 08:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
tasdrouille's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mirabel, QC
Posts: 1,672

The Guzzler - '08 Hyundai Elantra GL
90 day: 33.12 mpg (US)

Got Soul? - '11 Kia Soul 2U
Thanks: 35
Thanked 85 Times in 56 Posts
Diesels ignite the mixture by compression, no spark there, just the shear heat of compressed air. When it's really cold outside, injection timing is of utmost importance in order to get an easy cold start by injecting the fuel at exactly the right time. In older TDIs like mine, the timing when starting is fixed at the rotary fuel pump and not controlled by the ECU yet. A hard to start TDI when it's cold probably have its basic timing off from the optimal position. In common rail diesels that's not a problem anymore as timing is always controlled by the ECU.

My TDI always started in the winter and, from a FE standpoint I'm a bit ashamed to say, I never plugged it unless it was below -30 C.

I've never had my D2 or ULSD gel even by -40 C. They must use a whole lot of anti-gel additives up here.
__________________



www.HyperKilometreur.com - Quand chaque goutte compte...
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2008, 01:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 70

Neon1 - '97 Plymouth Neon highline
90 day: 27.26 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Let me start by saying I am pro diesels in general.....But

Right now, with the situation in the US. Diesels are a break even to slight downside as opposed to a gasser. The additional cost for the average (less than 12k miles per year) driver for the diesel and it's maintenance are a downside. However, for the more abundant drivers, they definately pay.

My father has a 1998 cummins TD 2500 Dodge, I have a 1997 V8 360 gasser. They are the same body style, both 4X4, auto trans, same gear ratio and really a pretty good comparison. We are also both almost anal about maintenance/tire presssures etc. (I claim that I learned it from him )

We made the same trip from RS to Cheyenne on the same day. Both trucks were empty (we were helping a friend move to RS from Chey)....The cost at the pump was within 50 cents of each other. A definite wash.

However, an oil change for mine was 21.95 and for his was 49.95.
the additional weight puts more strain on the front end and he needed ball joints at 75K.
Any repair he has had done has been about 50% more than a comprable repair on the gasser.
This is in addition to his being almost $10,000 more on the initial price tag.

At this point, gas is $1.30 in town....diesel is a little over $2. Even a bigger spread than it was when we did the test.

In small cars, you can get a gas rated at 35. A diesel would need to get 60-ish to break even.

Refineries are still geating up to make more of the low-sulfur diesel. As it becomes more readily available, I believe the cost will decrease. As it and gasoline get closer together in cost....then the American public will start to switch. However, with the economy the way it is, I see more people hanging on to their older cars longer. I just hope they tune them regularly if they are going to do that.

Jim
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:58 AM   #16 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 27

Mom's Taxi - '05 Toyota Sienna LE 8-passenger
90 day: 22.59 mpg (US)

Diesel - '09 VW Jetta TDI
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Diesels are the future! But not the way you may think- read on.

Back when I was stationed in Europe in the 90's, we enjoyed renting incredible diesel vehicles. On the longer trips we would often wonder if their fuel gauges had broken!

I wrote numerous letters to Ford and GM urging them to bring their incredible "clean" Euro diesels back to our home market. I always got the same reply: it was cost prohibitive to meet EPA pollution requirements with our non-Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD)-at the time.

After too many years of delay, ULSD became required by law in the US. When it finally became mandated in Oct 2006, I thought "Great, now we should see a plethora of "clean" diesels in the US market!"

Well, a couple of things had happened between the 90's and Oct 2006:
1. During the Clinton administration, taxes on diesel fuel were levied at a rate 50% higher than gasoline. As a few of you have experienced, diesel fuel costs ~20-35% more than a gallon of regular unleaded.
2. The economy has delayed US diesel programs at the Detroit 3, Honda, and Hyundai, among others.

I am certain of the inevitability of "clean" diesel proliferation in the US market. And I am not alone in this assessment: US refiners are following the lead of Marathon Oil in investing over $2 billion to expand their diesel refining capacity in the US. (even the big ExxonMobil has announced a +$1 billion diesel refining initiative for the US).

Last edited by DieselHybrid; 12-20-2008 at 12:49 PM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 05:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nashotah, WI
Posts: 206

Fokus - '12 Ford Focus SE
90 day: 33.1 mpg (US)

Lecksus - '03 Lexus RX300
90 day: 17.61 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Diesels arent the future if your in cold weather, if they were we'd all be driving deisel volkswagon rabbits and they didn't sell a ton of them did they. The cost cancels out ANY gain EVERY time you figure it out. the cost of the fuel vs the savings in MPG wash that out; unless......... you can name me one manufacturer that prices the vehicle cheaper than an equal gas engine model,,,just one,,,,comon,,, any body wanna tell me? <tapping fingers>, well; Ah that's what I thought. There aren't any. Case closed!
__________________
"The Stone Age did not come to an end because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will not come to an end because we have a lack of oil" ; His Excellency Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani (Saudi Arabia Oil Minister from 1962 to 1986)


https://ecomodder.com/forum/em-fuel-...ehicleid=10608
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 07:39 PM   #18 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 27

Mom's Taxi - '05 Toyota Sienna LE 8-passenger
90 day: 22.59 mpg (US)

Diesel - '09 VW Jetta TDI
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Is this what folks refer to as "Trolling?"

Anyway...
This is the same argument Bob Lutz used to explain why GM refused to pursue gasoline-electric Hybrid technology. A few years later he was eating crow trying to explain to shareholders why GM missed the Hybrid boat and had to try to play catch-up to Toyota. Now the future of GM rides, in no small part, on its ability to leapfrog Toyota with the Volt plug-in electric vehicle. I hope GM can stay solvent and recover its lead someday.

I concede that economically speaking, hybrids or alternative fuel vehicles (to include diesels) may make little sense. (a few years back I put together a spreadsheet that demonstrated that the time to recuperate the price premium between a Corolla and Prius if fuel was $4/gallon was just over 12 years.)

Yet it may not be about the personal cost of a vehicle, but the barrels of foreign oil you don't consume that counts. That's less revenue that makes it into the hands of unsavory folks like Ahmidenijad, and Hugo Chavez.

Ultimately, this money may find its way into the hands of terrorist groups. Additionally, how many conflicts could we avoid if the US wasn't as dependent on foreign oil as it is? I saw a bumper sticker on a Prius that kind of sums it up: "Bin Ladin hates this car."

It's hard to put a price tag on that.

Peace.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 08:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Nashotah, WI
Posts: 206

Fokus - '12 Ford Focus SE
90 day: 33.1 mpg (US)

Lecksus - '03 Lexus RX300
90 day: 17.61 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Yet it may not be about the personal cost of a vehicle, but the barrels of foreign oil you don't consume that counts. That's less revenue that makes it into the hands of unsavory folks like Ahmidenijad, and Hugo Chavez.

Ultimately, this money may find its way into the hands of terrorist groups
.

Ok then lets do something about using this foreign oil. I know; lets put an embargo on this largest oil importer. Lets close all trade with this country, for after all this country gets our money and like you said, we really don't know what they do with it. But wait; maybe we should warn this largest oil importing country to stop this unsavory support of who knows who OR ELSE! And lets lets them know we mean OR ELSE. And if they think they can get a free ride off of our oil dollars, we will use any measure necessary. Only then will this largest oil importing country will feel the rath of the United States. And who you ask is this largest oil importer?,,,,,,,,,,,CANADA, Hm wonder how many guys in power up there are named " Ahmidenijad, and Hugo Chavez."

You won't ever convice anyone to buy a diesel in place of gas, or a hybrid (remmember there is NO disposial system in place for the batteries in them) vehicle untill you make them COST THE SAME Key words are cost. You can tout all the Toyota sucess facts all you want but if they were the know-all high-tech gurus why haven't they done anything in Formula 1? If there is anything that comes from Diesels it will be a hybrid Diesel from europe, not japan. It is they who are years ahead of the curve on this and not the japanese. Incedently Honda is first now working on this trying to catch Audi. Their LeMans wins have proved a lot and that is what has caused the Diesel debate to get stirred up. Only problem is the age old one, cold starting and a price for the masses, not your-we have to do it for the availability of fuel argument. if it will happen thats how it has to happen and the two problems I mentioned have to be resolved. If the Pirus is the answer why isn't every car on the road a Pirus?
__________________
"The Stone Age did not come to an end because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will not come to an end because we have a lack of oil" ; His Excellency Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani (Saudi Arabia Oil Minister from 1962 to 1986)


https://ecomodder.com/forum/em-fuel-...ehicleid=10608
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2008, 09:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 27

Mom's Taxi - '05 Toyota Sienna LE 8-passenger
90 day: 22.59 mpg (US)

Diesel - '09 VW Jetta TDI
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I wish the world were as simple as you say. In our global economy- oil prices are affected by a multitude of factors. Supply and demand. If one member of OPEC sneezes (yes, I know, Canada is not part of OPEC), the rest of the world runs for a hanky.

Every dollar sent overseas to buy foreign oil adds to our trade deficit. Last time I checked, in 2007-2008 we spent nearly 700 BILLION in foreign oil to satisfy our insatiable domestic energy needs. I'm glad Canada is getting a large portion of this (as is Mexico)- but inevitably Hugo and Ahmidenijad get their slice through the global market as well. (I've made no mention of Saudi Arabia's global portion. Do you recall that 17 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were of Saudi origin?)

F1 and LeMans racing in general have little bearing on overall US vehicle sales- so that argument isn't valid. We're talking about the US diesel market-correct?

Why aren't all vehicles on the road Prius? Simple, it's called freedom of choice.

I don't drive a Prius- because I can't stomach how boring it is to drive. That is my choice. However, I have driven "clean" turbo-diesels in Europe (from Ford and GM-Opel among others) that were 10x as fun to drive.

Yes, there are diesel cars available in the US right now- but I don't plan on owning one until I can buy one that is US-built. Again- this is my personal choice of wanting to support US workers.

Peace.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you eco-drive a diesel ? groar Hypermiling / EcoDriver's Ed 122 05-24-2014 09:05 PM
Mopar to offer Diesel Swap kit for Wranglers Red EcoModding Central 8 08-09-2011 06:23 PM
ABG: Top Gear -- BMW M3 vs. Toyota Prius fuel economy race track competition (video) RH77 Hybrids 48 12-31-2009 07:11 AM
The Cars GM Needs To Make Big Dave General Efficiency Discussion 66 01-05-2009 03:18 PM
As I Had Thought Big Dave General Efficiency Discussion 54 09-02-2008 11:00 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com