Project: Rebuilding an '01 Honda Insight as a nonhybrid

[SuperTrooper]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

I just disable and rip out the extra safety equipment.

I do this in the shop as well. I ask customers if they want their extra airbags. The say no I rip them out. Customers who have a broken AC system and don't ask for it to be repaired I ask them if they want me to rip it out and put a shorter belt so they can save gas( I explain it won't be much but it cools their engine better(which is ALWAYS better in the summer) and its not added weight or pulley problems). I also ask if they want their tires inflated to max sidewall and then explain that its reasonably safe and not an issue. I would be careful advocating this for anyone else. people here are really nice and if something went wrong and it wasn't because something I had changed they are very unlikely to sue, whereas I'm not sure if thats the case in your areas.

I'm sure you realize you are violating a federal law when you, as a third party (not the owner), remove or disable any safety system the car was sold with. The owner is also at risk of voiding their auto insurance policy, since most policies contain language stating that disabling standard safety systems is grounds for non-coverage in the event of an accident.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by Fabio

Such seriousness with the seat belts.

Not trying to talk anyone else into shredding their seat belts of course.. I am clearly in the wrong, but it's not like my irrationality is challenging an issue any more rational.

Sorry, but it's quite well proven that seat belts and airbags save lives--lots of them. Deaths per passenger mile fall every year despite more cars on the road, more miles traveled, poorer driver education and larger disparities between the smallest and largest cars on the road. There is no rationalizing away the statistics--or the crash test results.

Airbags got a bad rap because originally they were mandated as a passive restraint--to try to substitute for a seat belt. That resulted in airbags that caused more injuries than they prevented. Since then they've been changed to a supplemental restraint to prevent the body from hitting the hard objects in the car when the impact was heavy enough to overwhelm the seat belt. In this they perform very well.

You can rip out the airbags if you want. It's just as asinine as not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, but if you want to kill yourself, that's fine. (Make sure your passengers know before they get in the car, though.) But not wearing a seat belt puts people in other vehicles at risk (not to mention pedestrians and bicyclists), so at least wear one while driving.

[evolutionmovement]

The main issue with airbags originally was injuries and deaths resulting from the single large explosive charge that set them off, regardless of driver/passenger size or distance from the wheel, as with children or small females (and dwarves, I imagine, but they always seem to be excluded from statistics). New airbags have multiple stages and sensors to adjust the force of the airbag deployment to reduce (and they have) injuries resulting from them. I'm pretty sure they were always classified as a supplemental restraint as, originally mandated by the government, the manufacturers were forced to instal either automatic seatbelts or airbags as an interim before airbags were required for every vehicle. My early Subaru Legacy has the "mechanical mice" belts instead of the airbags that replaced them a couple years later.

If you knowingly remove a safety device from a car and sell it without disclosure (and maybe even with, depending on the lawyer, I suppose), you can be liable for injuries incurred to the next owner in the event of an accident. At least up here, but since the safety equipment is federally mandated, I'd make a guess that would apply nationwide. I also know someone who couldn't pass inspection on a newer car with an airbag wheel swapped out for a non-airbag wheel.

[theunchosen]

The safety equipment is not federally mandated.

I live in TN, modifying your car automatically grandfathers you into specialty vehicles. Even if you don't have it registered that way.

Also its not illegal to start with. You can take your car to the dealer and have them disable it. I only ever disable systems if and when the owner asks for it.

I'm not really against frontal airbags. I can understand those. Side impact air bags are mostly useless. IF anything is going to hit you hard enough that your head might hit the object you're pretty well screwed anyway. I've seen lots of car wrecks as I helped out with the Carter County emergency squad and people are usually completely pinned in their car and bleeding to death before their head ever gets near spider glassing the side windows. . .

It might protect you. . .but honestly if something hits you hard enough for them to matter. . .the window is the least dangerous area.

The problem with air bags is they deploy most of the time when they are not useful(sub 30 mph) and cause injuries and burns. Above 30 mph an airbag is a huge benefit because it keeps you from cracking your face on the steering wheel if you sit close. I don't and have hard belts without tensioners so I can promise you its impossible for my face to get near anything the air bag protects from.

Most of our customers request we disable the airbags because they have had a wreck and prefer to go without.

But this is way off topic. . .

[theunchosen]

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

The main issue with airbags originally was injuries and deaths resulting from the single large explosive charge that set them off, regardless of driver/passenger size or distance from the wheel, as with children or small females (and dwarves, I imagine, but they always seem to be excluded from statistics). New airbags have multiple stages and sensors to adjust the force of the airbag deployment to reduce (and they have) injuries resulting from them. I'm pretty sure they were always classified as a supplemental restraint as, originally mandated by the government, the manufacturers were forced to instal either automatic seatbelts or airbags as an interim before airbags were required for every vehicle. My early Subaru Legacy has the "mechanical mice" belts instead of the airbags that replaced them a couple years later.

If you knowingly remove a safety device from a car and sell it without disclosure (and maybe even with, depending on the lawyer, I suppose), you can be liable for injuries incurred to the next owner in the event of an accident. At least up here, but since the safety equipment is federally mandated, I'd make a guess that would apply nationwide. I also know someone who couldn't pass inspection on a newer car with an airbag wheel swapped out for a non-airbag wheel.

You can sell whatever you want to whoever you want in an "as is" condition. You can sell it without seatbelts, a motor, seats and wheels.

Dealers can't because they have a commercial obligation. I don't.

Seat belts legally are only allowed to be used once. After the car has been wrecked the belts MUST be replaced even if there were no occupants in the extra seats if a dealer plans to sell it. Also its illegal to drive a car with seat belts that have been wrecked as they are no longer considered valid seat belts, so you get the same ticket as you would if you weren't wearing it.

Those cases you mentioned are state specific. I registered a vehicle yesterday. No air bags, no ABS, no safety features other than seat belts. It is registered as legal road going vehicle, not as a tractor or a motorcycle or anything else. Its a 4 wheel car with mid-rear layout.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

The safety equipment is not federally mandated.

Also its not illegal to start with. You can take your car to the dealer and have them disable it. I only ever disable systems if and when the owner asks for it.

I'm not really against frontal airbags. I can understand those. Side impact air bags are mostly useless. IF anything is going to hit you hard enough that your head might hit the object you're pretty well screwed anyway. I've seen lots of car wrecks as I helped out with the Carter County emergency squad and people are usually completely pinned in their car and bleeding to death before their head ever gets near spider glassing the side windows. . .

It might protect you. . .but honestly if something hits you hard enough for them to matter. . .the window is the least dangerous area.

The problem with air bags is they deploy most of the time when they are not useful(sub 30 mph) and cause injuries and burns. Above 30 mph an airbag is a huge benefit because it keeps you from cracking your face on the steering wheel if you sit close. I don't and have hard belts without tensioners so I can promise you its impossible for my face to get near anything the air bag protects from.

Most of our customers request we disable the airbags because they have had a wreck and prefer to go without.

But this is way off topic. . .

Federal law not only requires front airbags, it makes it a felony to disable or remove them without written approval from the NHTSA. (http://www.safercar.gov/staticfiles/...ch_Request.pdf)

And airbags are not just designed to keep you from hitting the steering wheel or window. They are designed to help your entire torso decelerate at the same rate so you are less likely to shear off an aorta. Rigid seatbelts will at least keep you in your seat but otherwise, they are more dangerous than modern seatbelts with airbags.

[theunchosen]

-shrugs- then its like a speed limit. No one obeys it.

The only thing air bags improve over my 5 point harness is the slowest part of the acceleration my head experiences. The most force your body experiences is the instant of impact. Air bags do nothing for that. Standard seat belts allow you to slip slightly forward which creates additional velocity making impact with the steering wheel dangerous.

In that sense all the same the acceleration is constant and there is no internal shear. The shear is going to happen when Tau max is greatest and thats the instant you wreck and no pre-tensioning seat belt will protect you from that.

Once again. . .to achieve that much force on a healthy individual the other cars engine is going to be parked in your passenger seat and this is the least of your worries as the static shock of impact and your seat belt are more dangerous than aerterial shear.

[Clev]

Well, at least write "Airbags removed" on the pink slip of your customers' cars. That way, when they sell the cars, the buyers' next of kin know who to sue.

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

The most force your body experiences is the instant of impact.

Ever seen slow-motion video of occupants of a vehicle in a head-on type collision? At the instant of collision, there is very little force acting on the body. You'll see it start to slide forward off of the seat, until it is stopped by something. That can be the seat belt, the air bag, the dashboard, the windshield...

One of the main things that both seat belts and airbags do is to slow down the deceleration to something that your body can (hopefully) tolerate. You can easily survive a deceleration of hundreds of thousands of feet per second, if it's stretched out over enough time.

I am not a fan of the way that even the smallest and "lightest" of today's cars weigh 3000 lbs. But I do think that airbags, and most especially seat belts, are Very Very Good Things Indeed.

...BTW, I noticed you mentioned five-point belts. You do understand that those are designed to work specifically with racing-type seats (lots of bolstering plus built-in gaps for the belts) and with the assumption that the car has at least a roll bar, if not a full cage, right? I know a number of track-day outfits that will not allow five-point restraints unless the car also has racing seats and a roll bar. There are good reasons for that...

-soD

[evolutionmovement]

5-point harnesses not bolted to a near horizontal surface (like a roll cage) can cause spinal compression. Fun.

And stretching out the length of the collision is the point of auto-tensioning belts and airbags, is as some_other_dave mentioned. They're supposed to allow movement with the idea of preventing internal brain injuries like the one that killed Dale Earnhardt.

That said, most of the weight comes from all the crumble zones and, in smaller cars, engineering them to be able to have a chance against the land ironclads so many other people choose to drive. Seat belts are a minor weight addition. Airbags wouldn't be too bad were it not for there being so damn many of them now. Cars are way too safe now, allowing people to do stupid things like text and drive with little worry of the consequence (yet, conversely, or maybe in awareness of their stupidity, they tend to buy cars based on perceptions of safety) that they'd be unlikely to do if the likely consequences were greater. I probably average seeing about a collision a day commuting to and from work, yet despite what looks like expensive damage (and I'm sure it is as even some idiot denting my Mazda3 in the parking lot cost $2500), everybody involved are usually standing around looking bored awaiting state police/tow truck (while raising insurance rates for the rest everyone).