Project: Rebuilding an '01 Honda Insight as a nonhybrid

[Clev]

I got his reply in email because I'm subscribed to the thread. I'm not sure if he deleted the post after making it, or vB ate it somehow, but here's what I was emailed:

The Insight 1G is still alive and well. I use it as my daily driver up here in the Pacific Northwest. Based on the hilly terrain around these parts I generally average around 80mpg.

A while back I was working pretty hard to come up with a set of Michelin Energy Saver tires from Europe to see what they would do for fuel mileage. They really didn't make the amount of difference I was hoping for compared to the Bridgestones that came as part of the original vehicle. The Michelins might be good for a mile per gallon or two. They didn't make enough of a dent to justify the time and cost that went into procuring them. The one good part about the set I got is that they're H rated so I don't need to maintain another set of tires for trips to Bonneville.

Speaking of Bonneville, I missed this year's event based on a work commitment. Next year I'll be deployed with the Navy so I'll miss that event as well. Hopefully I'll make 2013 to crack the 100mph barrier. The run out to Bonneville might also serve to motivate me to do some additional tuning on the hybrid side to get a little more efficiency out of the car. Right now electric assist comes on too early at highway speeds. It might be worth incorporating a hybrid multi-mode feature or some other way to adjust the levels of electric assist available to the driver. Mike Dubrowski's MIMA system is pretty slick but I don't know if I need all the flexibility. I also wonder if I'd be asking for trouble implementing another system on top of what is already in the car.

That's the quick and dirty. I can say the car has been very dependable and is regularly returning fuel mileage numbers on the order of 20-30% better in the hills of the Pacific NW than what I was getting with the gasoline engine in the very flat lands of Southern Maryland. What's next? I don't know for certain but a picture of MB's 900cc Smart Car turbo diesel in Diesel Power magazine has me wondering what taking 0.3L off engine displacement would do for fuel economy.

Best wishes,
Jake

[RobertSmalls]

The Flamboyant Seller operates out of Maumee, OH.

Sounds like Jake could really use a MIMA_L, or even just a clutch toggle switch to keep IMA from giving assist when it's not required.

It's disappointing that nothing better than the OE Insight tire has come along in the past decade. I guess the tire-buying public just doesn't care as much about fuel economy as the engineers working on the Insight did.

[SwamiSalami]

boy that doesn't look like much fun.

[pete c]

Wow, what a great thread. Even the hijacked parts!!!! It has inspired me to register so I can put my 2 cents in.

First off, I like Fabio, even if he is a moron for not wearing a seatbelt. I too am damned pissed off that quarter century old cars kick the crap out of new ones in mileage.

I am a libertarian. I think everyone should be free to build or drive whatever the hell they want, which perhaps some restraints on building vehicles that are inherently dangerous to others on the road. I think excursions should be legal, but some measures to ensure their pilots are not utterly clueless, is a good thing.

There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have 10-20 hp single passengers vehicles if we want them. Such vehicles could achieve well over 100 mpg and still provide better crash/weather protection than a motorcycle. And they would be dirt cheap.

As for the ultimate insight, I think honda's original 5 speed is awesome. It provides a nice balance, but, as with most things, balance means it doesn't do a particular thing extremely well. A straight EV insight would make a great short range commuter. A lupo TDI powered one, a great hiway cruiser.

I think there is another one that might be kind of cool for a mostly commuter, occasional long distance rig. It would be a series hybrid kind of along the lines of a volt, but with way less engine. The problem with the volt is it is always dragging around a heavy lump of an ICE. My idea is an extremely light insight with maybe a 30 hp electric motor, enough lithium battery to get me to work and back and a very small, very light generator. I would make the generator removable. Why drag it to work and back?

Honda makes 2KW and 3KW gennies which may or may not make sufficient power to keep the batteries up. Does anyone know how many watts it takes to push an insight down the road at 65 mph. I think 3KW might do it.

[malovich]

3kw is about 4 horsepower, 745.69 Watts per HP. I doubt it would be able to get it above 20mph. 3kw could work in stop and go city driving though with a battery to act as a giant capacitor to spread out demand.

[pete c]

So, I guess I am a bit off on my guess of power, although I think 4 hp will push an insight well past 20 mph on flat ground. Perhaps you might need to step up to a 10KW gennie. Too bad there aren't affordable microturbine gennies out there yet. I think they are the future of vehicle hybrid propulsion. Another interesting one i read about is someone, audi, i think, doing a 250cc rotary powered gennie in this application. rotaries are not very good ICEs from an efficiency point of view, but, they are crazy good from a lbs/hp one. And, unlike microturbines, they already have a long history as vehicle propulsion.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by pete c

As for the ultimate insight, I think honda's original 5 speed is awesome. It provides a nice balance, but, as with most things, balance means it doesn't do a particular thing extremely well.

But most of us - ok, some of us - don't live lives that involve doing only one particular thing. On a hot day, I can get close to 100 mpg on the flat road into town, but I can also drive up the mountain on a snowy winter day to go skiing, or ford streams on dirt roads out in the desert.

Does anyone know how many watts it takes to push an insight down the road at 65 mph. I think 3KW might do it.

I worked it out as about 17 HP, from the fact that it'll hold about 65 mph on a 6% downgrade.

[wwkayaker]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But most of us - ok, some of us - don't live lives that involve doing only one particular thing. On a hot day, I can get close to 100 mpg on the flat road into town, but I can also drive up the mountain on a snowy winter day to go skiing, or ford streams on dirt roads out in the desert.

I worked it out as about 17 HP, from the fact that it'll hold about 65 mph on a 6% downgrade.

17HP may be able to maintain the desired speed. The issue is getting there while on an up-hill on-ramp to safely merge into traffic that is going 65+ mph. Based on cD and weight, my car (05 Mitsu Lancer) requires 21.75 HP to maintain interstate speeds (70 mph speed limit here in Indiana). It started with a 0.30 cD, weighs 2701 lbs and has a frontal area of 25.1 sq ft. I am sure there is a formula for calculating exactly how much horsepower is needed to excellerate from 0-70 mph in the distance of an on-ramp with a slope. The design parameters of typical on-ramps would probably need to be known. Horsepower Design Equation Formula Calculator - Engine Horsepower Trap Speed Method calculated my car needing ~73 HP to accelerate to 70 mph. Although, it seems to be very basic and not adding in cD which will have an affect.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by wwkayaker

17HP may be able to maintain the desired speed. The issue is getting there while on an up-hill on-ramp to safely merge into traffic that is going 65+ mph.

Or climbing back up that 4000 ft of 6% grade :-)

But that is the rationale of the hybrid: you don't need a lot of power most of the time - that is, when cruising on the level - so you put in a small engine that runs closer to its most efficient BSFC, and get the quick bursts of power from the battery & electric motor.

[wwkayaker]

Yep, exactly. The design is still with an electric motor with enough HP to accelerate the vehicle to the desired speed in electric mode. The Hybrids I have at work are the other way around (electric assist once past 20 mph). The engine is a weak 4 cylinder.

For this post, the engine needs to have enough HP to accelerate the car since he is converting to nonhybrid.