Registering a car based reverse trike in CA

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

I really don't think so. Most people are not that familiar with cars overall. A police officer that is very familiar with cars will know this is a custom job.

I'm pretty sure most police officers would notice a Honda car with only three wheels isn't exactly a motorcycle. Most officers aren't incredibly knowledgeable, so they probably wouldn't pick out model differences, but a three wheeled Honda registered as a motorcycle is something most people could pick out.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

There are two reasons the officer will not do anything about his suspicions that something is amiss.

1.) The vehicle carries a legitimate rebuilt title that checks out when he runs it through his system and states that the Motorcycle was wrecked and then used to be rebuilt(there are no specifications that demand it look or use any of the original parts. I could take a Deed of destruction and slap the VIN on anything with 3 wheels and for all intents and purposes it is the old vehicle.) In essence the officer has no provision to do anything. You are the legal owner of a rebuilt vehicle that matches these specifications.

If we were doing this with something that's obviously a trike, even with a bbc in it, then I'd be more inclined to agree, but this will look mostly lke a car, less one wheel in the back, and that will set off bells even with an officer who doesn't know much about cars if it's registered as a motorcycle. The exception would be modding the car to the point where it looked like a MC, but at that point it is for all intents a MC.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

2.) Its extra paperwork for something that won't count towards his quota and the risk of getting entirely chewed out for irresponsibly harrassing a law-abiding citizen is pretty high.

It's not that much extra paper work, at least given their behavior. They give people many free passes to the state ref for stuff as small as an exhaust or air intake w/o a CARB sticker, so I don't think paperwork will stop 'em w/ something that looks a lot like a car registered as a MC.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

I'm not proposing the OP do anything illegal or even new. When the officer pulls up the information through his database on his car laptop it will show that its a motorcycle with a deed of destruction-to-rebuilt title, which he will know as I stated that the new vehicle can be whatever it wants and be called the old one.

It may be whatever the old owner wants it to be in other states, but in CA the classification of something like that is up to a state ref, not the owner. For something that's not obvious, like swapping different engines in older smog exempt cars, diesel swaps, motorcycle swaps, and stuff that can look OEM, someone can probably get away w/ it, but for something that looks like a car w/ a MC registration, I don't think they would let it slide, unless of course the owner knew 'em.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Now if he leveraged a state that allowed him to register a 4-wheel vehicle as a motorcycle with the same technique he may get in trouble because the officer can clearly see that its got 4 wheels putting it outside MC range in California.

Looking like a car with a car's running gear would put it outside of the MC range in CA, which is the problem. Simply taking off a wheel and adding a different rear suspension is not enough to make a car/drivetrain requiring smog a MC AFAIK. Course, I could be wrong, and that's something a state ref could settle.

[theunchosen]

waffle there aren't any laws regarding what a motorcycle can or can't look like. period lol.

It has to have less than 4 wheels. It used to have to weigh less than 1500 lbs but now it doesn't.

And police officers are frequently not that well informed. I get pulled over at least once a year on stolen car suspicions because I have Acura badges on my Honda Del Sol. I'm not kidding, its annoying if I am running late, but usually it happens on the highway when I have time to spare and then its just amusing.

Its not whatever the owner wants it to be. Its whatever the DMV says it is. If the DMV says its a motorcycle then the police are going to have to deal with it being a motorcycle. The reason to register it out of state first is because other states won't care about emissions so that will get him a modeal year thats smog exempt(we don't care about model years so its easier to get whatever year you want). Then carwhisperer takes it down to the DMV with a DMV-issued title stating that it is a motorcycle.

DMV will look at it, its got only 3 wheels, so i'll be darned this must be a motorcycle as the title says. The only thing this process is doing is avoiding getting assigned a smog year and the DMV is not likely to pop the hood and start poking around and asking what year the engine is. It's a rebuilt motorcycle engine remember? I doubt there are very few people working for the DMV that can identify the engine by looking at it, and since you registered it out of state. . .you can get them to sign off on stamping the engine with whatever VIN you want as well(your old motorcycle VIN that is smog exempt would be best just in case they actually decide to check it out).

Now you're going to have A title, California registration and motorcycle plates. Cop pulls you over and unlike your two listed examples we aren't missing any paperwork. We have the DMV certified photocopy, registration, the tags, and insurance if we have to have that. The cop might not like it but he as I said before has no rules to send you anywhere rather than on your way.

point out a law that its breaking that he can call you out on?

The only one this process circumvents is model year and engine year. The title will read rebuilt motorcycle. Cops most likely are not that informed about cars and their model years as normal enthusiasts or exotics(try calling in and telling them to look for a lotus exige, they will then ask you to describe it), but they are very well informed on the law. Law says if its rebuilt it can be and look like and work like whatever the owner wants. Also if he really wants to he can take a peak and the engine's VIN plate will match the motorcycle's so no need for suspicion there.

[Carwhisperer]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

That's what I'd be concerned about. A cop would probably give the owner a free pass to the local state ref and let them decide if it's a MC or car.

Are you saying that if I get pulled over with a SPCNS title I have a better chance of not getting sent to the BAR because I have already been there? Vs. having a salvaged MC title, which would make the cops likely to send me to the BAR to sort things out?

unchosen: I'm not proposing the OP do anything illegal or even new. When the officer pulls up the information through his database on his car laptop it will show that its a motorcycle with a deed of destruction-to-rebuilt title, which he will know as I stated that the new vehicle can be whatever it wants and be called the old one.

I believe in CA a "destruction-to-rebuilt title" would be called a "salvaged title". If so, that is something I could easily accomplish here in CA without having to travel to a different state. A salvaged title is generally issued when a vehicle is considered wrecked beyond repair but someone decides to fix it anyways. Is that how a vehicle typically ends up with a "destruction-to-rebuilt title" in TN?

[theunchosen]

Originally Posted by Carwhisperer

I believe in CA a "destruction-to-rebuilt title" would be called a "salvaged title". If so, that is something I could easily accomplish here in CA without having to travel to a different state. A salvaged title is generally issued when a vehicle is considered wrecked beyond repair but someone decides to fix it anyways. Is that how a vehicle typically ends up with a "destruction-to-rebuilt title" in TN?

Yes its also called a salvage title, sorry. The reason I suggested the salvage title out of state is because California is going to care about the engine year because of emissions. So they will look and see you've got a Honda car engine in there and it has to have smog checks. Then they slap you with 2 years, 1 the salvaged car year, 2 the engine year. Emissions is going to look at #2.

Out-of-state, where emissions are not regulated after production, they won't care and will give you one solid title as one year(the one from the salvaged vehicle,rebuilt, whatever).

If you try this in California as far as I can tell from the regulations you listed you'd get slapped with a specialty title and if its not in the first 500 cars you'll get either 2 years(engine, model) or 1(this year) neither of which escapes smog checks.

I guess what waffle is getting at is something I don't thoroughly click with, because as far as my experience it is something thats absurd. But you do live in California, so it might be a reasonable experience there I don't know. Anytime I've been pulled over in a salvage they just yank my registration, license, insurance walk back to their car make sure I'm not warranted for arrest and write me up a ticket.

I'm pretty sure I could have a car straight up registered as a motorcycle and probably get away with it(4 wheels and all). I would have to switch it to 3 tires only and then switch back but. . .as I said its been done.

I revert back to my original notion, switch states and vote for people who oppose those regulations and you don't have to worry about it. If thats not an option I'd try the salvage out of state. If thats not possible I'd try in state.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Carwhisperer

Are you saying that if I get pulled over with a SPCNS title I have a better chance of not getting sent to the BAR because I have already been there? Vs. having a salvaged MC title, which would make the cops likely to send me to the BAR to sort things out?

It would be very unlikely for the cop to send you to the BAR station w/ a new VIN and emissions compliance stuff. W/o out it, they'll see what looks like a car for the most part w/ a CBR 1000 or whatever, registration, and they'll probably send ya to the BAR station anyway.

[theunchosen]

You could just head down there when you get your new title and get some kind of documentation that you've already been there. So if you get pulled over you've got it(can't stop getting pulled over for looking suspicious, but you might be able to save yourself a drive by having more evidence). Whats the cop going to do if you have it?

"you need to drive down and get this checked out. . .because it looks like a car."

"Thank you officer, I already did that just to avoid you having to fill out some extra paperwork. . .here is the paperwork that its properly registered, titled and tagged."

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

waffle there aren't any laws regarding what a motorcycle can or can't look like. period lol.

Learn to read newb, lol, I never said there were laws regarding what a motorcycle would look like.

I said that if something looking like a car is registered as a MC, a cop would probably send it to a BAR station to sort everything out. The same thing would apply if I put a 500ci bbc from 1980 in a brand new car, even if the registration said it was just a new Corolla. Cops tend to have a hard time picking out model specific differences, so in those cases, even if something isn't legal, it would probably pass under the radar, but for things that most people would pick up on, like a three-wheeled car with MC reg, or other obvious mismatches, the driver will probably get sent to the BAR.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

It has to have less than 4 wheels. It used to have to weigh less than 1500 lbs but now it doesn't.

It also as to have a CARB approved engine/emissions system for MCs, and whatever light/brake/etc requirements. I'd guess that a sufficiently modified Honda shell, along with a whatever MY MC engine, could get by as a MC, but I don't think simply reworking the rear suspension/wheelbase of a compact car is a enough to turn it into a MC. That said, it's totally up to the state ref whether it's a MC or car given some modifications.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

And police officers are frequently not that well informed. I get pulled over at least once a year on stolen car suspicions because I have Acura badges on my Honda Del Sol. I'm not kidding, its annoying if I am running late, but usually it happens on the highway when I have time to spare and then its just amusing.

There's a huge difference between not being able to tell what's an Acura and what's a Honda, and not being able to tell what's a MC and what's a car. Like I said before, they probably won't be able to pick up on model differences, but something that looks like a car with MC reg will almost certainly set off bells.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Its not whatever the owner wants it to be. Its whatever the DMV says it is. If the DMV says its a motorcycle then the police are going to have to deal with it being a motorcycle. The reason to register it out of state first is because other states won't care about emissions so that will get him a modeal year thats smog exempt(we don't care about model years so its easier to get whatever year you want). Then carwhisperer takes it down to the DMV with a DMV-issued title stating that it is a motorcycle.

The CA DMV doesn't care what MY/classification other states will give a vehicle, it's still subject to their rules. Even if I can get a two ton pickup titled as a MC in another state, CA doesn't have to abide by the other state's classifications. Granted, the DMV could take the owner at face value and allow 'em to register their "MC" if there's no inspection, but the second a cop pulls 'em over, they'll see what looks like a car with MC registration and the owner will get sent to the local BAR station.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

DMV will look at it, its got only 3 wheels, so i'll be darned this must be a motorcycle as the title says. The only thing this process is doing is avoiding getting assigned a smog year and the DMV is not likely to pop the hood and start poking around and asking what year the engine is. It's a rebuilt motorcycle engine remember? I doubt there are very few people working for the DMV that can identify the engine by looking at it, and since you registered it out of state. . .you can get them to sign off on stamping the engine with whatever VIN you want as well(your old motorcycle VIN that is smog exempt would be best just in case they actually decide to check it out).

They may not even bother inspecting it before registration, but if they do, they won't make a model/engine determination, they'll just send it to a BAR station to do that and the CHP for all the safety stuff. If they register it w/o an inspection, then the first cop to pull it over and see what looks like a car with MC registration will likely send it to a BAR station.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Now you're going to have A title, California registration and motorcycle plates. Cop pulls you over and unlike your two listed examples we aren't missing any paperwork. We have the DMV certified photocopy, registration, the tags, and insurance if we have to have that. The cop might not like it but he as I said before has no rules to send you anywhere rather than on your way.

We don't have to miss any paperwork. The cop will see what looks like a car with MC reg, and probably send it to the local BAR station. Just like they would if I put a bbc from 1980 in a brand new car, even though I have a title, CA reg, and plates. Just because something was registered doesn't mean it can circumvent any laws/regulations, and something that looks like a car, registered as a MC, will probably get sent to the local BAR station to determine what's legal and what isn't.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

point out a law that its breaking that he can call you out on?

CARB compliance. A 1990s Honda engine was never tested as a MC engine, so something that looks like a car, w/ a car engine, w/ a MC reg, will probably get sent to a BAR station.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

The only one this process circumvents is model year and engine year. The title will read rebuilt motorcycle.

And that's the illegal part. Just because another state says it's a MC, doesn't mean it's a MC in CA, since CA has different regulations. I can't just yank a wheel and claim my car is a MC. If it is, then it would have to be a specially constructed vehicle, and the ref would let me know what I could do. As a MC it would probably require a MC engine, not a car engine, unless the owner had the car engine tested to verify it could meet the MC emissions regs for whatever year the car engine is from.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Cops most likely are not that informed about cars and their model years as normal enthusiasts or exotics(try calling in and telling them to look for a lotus exige, they will then ask you to describe it), but they are very well informed on the law. Law says if its rebuilt it can be and look like and work like whatever the owner wants. Also if he really wants to he can take a peak and the engine's VIN plate will match the motorcycle's so no need for suspicion there.

All the kit cars/custom builds get SPCNS registrations, so that's not a problem since it's already been seen by th BAR. If this had an SPCNS reg, it wouldn't be a problem, but if it looks like a car and is registered as a stock MC, w/o already getting the go ahead from the BAR, then a cop will probably send it in.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

You could just head down there when you get your new title and get some kind of documentation that you've already been there. So if you get pulled over you've got it(can't stop getting pulled over for looking suspicious, but you might be able to save yourself a drive by having more evidence). Whats the cop going to do if you have it?

"you need to drive down and get this checked out. . .because it looks like a car."

"Thank you officer, I already did that just to avoid you having to fill out some extra paperwork. . .here is the paperwork that its properly registered, titled and tagged."

Yup. If it's already been looked at by the BAR and has a SPCNS reg, then the cop won't be able to do anything, at least in terms of compliance.

[theunchosen]

spcns is not an option for the op.

He specifically said he couldn't be one of the first 500. So in that case he is automatically mandated to meet this years emissions for whichever category which means he has to have smog checks no matter what.

SPCNS might be the way to go but its not what the OP is asking.

A Salvage title gets around that. What I meant was drive down with a CA dmv registration to the BAR and get them to give you some form of notice that they approved of it as a salvage.

The reason to get the out-of-state title cleared through out-of-state DMV thats more lenient is they are only going to check and make sure its got turn signals and lights and plate holders.

If you get lucky the station will just hand it over. If not they will inspect it. Then its a toss up because there is no section of the regulation that says where this vehicle falls. Its a salvaged motorcycle with some of its parts and some parts from a donor vehicle.

Even in the toss up I'm banking it goes for MC. why? Because what percentage of the car has to be donated from what type to be an MC? What if I repair my motorcycle with car parts or a turbo from a car? The way to avoid inspection ad nauseam for them and you is what they currently do in most states.

If you have a salvage title and used some of the parts from the salvaged vehicle and are using its VIN then its classified as whatever the salvage was. Otherwise. . .what happens when you repair and engine with new parts? Its not a custom car its the same car with repairs. VIN and title mean just about everything.

Otherwise they would have to spend hours per vehicle they inspect.

I didn't say you did say there were laws. I was pointing it out. The only laws about motorcycle structure are, lights plate holders, turn signals, brakes, three wheels or less. done. If you look the regulations of no state say anything about what size or make the engine must be(except that if its smaller than 40-60 cc state depending its a scooter). They have comments about the emissions based on year but the engine is a year that is pre-smog for motorcycles. . .nevermind the fact its a Honda car engine because its now a (whatever brand the salvage bike is) Motorcycle engine because its attached to a VIN and a title that say so.

They might not like it, but there is not much they can do. Its a motorcycle of model year(whatever the bike salvaged comes from). Thats what Titles are for more than anything. Yes they prove ownership but it also makes it quick and easy for the DMV to figure out what it is rather than having to weight how many parts are from what.

This is why a good chunk of people who rebuild sports cars use the wheels off some other car and take its salvage title and VIN. Cheaper insurance and fewer regulation issues(In TN it doesn't matter but if you move it might).

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

spcns is not an option for the op.

He specifically said he couldn't be one of the first 500. So in that case he is automatically mandated to meet this years emissions for whichever category which means he has to have smog checks no matter what.

SPCNS isn't for just the first 500. The only difference is that the first 500 get to pick whether the emissions profile is based on the vehicle year or engine year. If taking a wheel off a Civic shell is enough to make it a MC shell, according to the CHP and BAR, thney could probably drop in a 1996 or whenever MC engine to make it a SCPNS MC from 96 or whenever. Heck, there's even something about removing the 500 vehicle limit, because there are a lot of kit cars from out of state registered as 65 Fords or whatever, since the DMV can't tell between a restored Ford and a kit Ford. Although I imagine they could still tell the difference between a car with three wheels and a MC.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

SPCNS might be the way to go but its not what the OP is asking.

A Salvage title gets around that. What I meant was drive down with a CA dmv registration to the BAR and get them to give you some form of notice that they approved of it as a salvage.

No way no how, at least IIRC, since a salvage title requires a CHP inspection. Not just any officer, but a VIN officer or whatever they're called, who does nothing but compliance, inspections, and tracking stolen parts. They will, nearly 100% fer sure, either send 'em to the BAR station to sort things out, or say no way jose.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

The reason to get the out-of-state title cleared through out-of-state DMV thats more lenient is they are only going to check and make sure its got turn signals and lights and plate holders.

If you get lucky the station will just hand it over. If not they will inspect it. Then its a toss up because there is no section of the regulation that says where this vehicle falls.

Sure there is. Unless it has a MC engine, and does not sufficiently resemble a production vehicle, it's not a MC. No MC engine=not a MC. If whoever does the inspection determines it's too close to an existing car model=not a MC. Even if the OP registers it from out of state, and gets by registering here, if they ever get pulled over odds are they'll get sent to the local BAR, who will abide by the same regs, except it'll be much harder to get something under their nose.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Its a salvaged motorcycle with some of its parts and some parts from a donor vehicle.

In order for it to be a salvaged motorcycle it would have to be made of primarily MC parts, and it wouldn't be. It would have a car engine and 90% of a car body.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Even in the toss up I'm banking it goes for MC. why? Because what percentage of the car has to be donated from what type to be an MC? What if I repair my motorcycle with car parts or a turbo from a car?

You can't use parts that aren't part of the original emissions spec, so that means no extra turbo unless it's part of a CARB approved kit. I imagine you could use car parts to repair a bike, but having struts, bearings, metal, or whatever from a car on a bike is a far cry from having a car that only has three wheels and maybe a MC swingarm/wheel in the back. If something is mostly a bike, meaning it has a legal engine and most of the frame is form a bike, then it's a bike. If it's mostly a car, with a car engine, even if it only has three wheels, then it's a car.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

The way to avoid inspection ad nauseam for them and you is what they currently do in most states.

If you have a salvage title and used some of the parts from the salvaged vehicle and are using its VIN then its classified as whatever the salvage was.

Maybe in other states, but not in CA in this case. If the vehicle is 90+% a car, then it's a car. It's only a MC if it's mostly a MC. The exeption is if the owner can get a SPCNS for it.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Otherwise. . .what happens when you repair and engine with new parts? Its not a custom car its the same car with repairs. VIN and title mean just about everything.

Otherwise they would have to spend hours per vehicle they inspect.

Like I said before, slight modifications, even if they aren't legal, can go under the radar provided the car doesn't have to be smogged, and even if it does in some cases, but a car with three wheels registered as a MC isn't slight modification. It'll send bells off in the head of just about every officer who sees it.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

I didn't say you did say there were laws. I was pointing it out. The only laws about motorcycle structure are, lights plate holders, turn signals, brakes, three wheels or less. done.

They also have to have a CARB approved engine and the frame has to be accepted as a MC frame. It can't sufficiently resemble a car already built.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

If you look the regulations of no state say anything about what size or make the engine must be(except that if its smaller than 40-60 cc state depending its a scooter). They have comments about the emissions based on year but the engine is a year that is pre-smog for motorcycles. . .nevermind the fact its a Honda car engine because its now a (whatever brand the salvage bike is) Motorcycle engine because its attached to a VIN and a title that say so.

Pre-smog check doesn't matter, it still has to be a CARB approved engine for MCs, even if it doesn't have to get a smog check every year. A car engine that ain't. The only vehicles that don't have to legally comply with the factory, or equivalent, emissions specs, are pre-65 IIRC.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

They might not like it, but there is not much they can do. Its a motorcycle of model year(whatever the bike salvaged comes from). Thats what Titles are for more than anything. Yes they prove ownership but it also makes it quick and easy for the DMV to figure out what it is rather than having to weight how many parts are from what.

Of course they can. They send it to the BAR. The BAR says it can't be a MC unless it has a certified engine, or the current engine complies with the current MY emission regs, in which case it could be smogged anyway, so that's a moot point, or it has a MC engine from whatever year.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

This is why a good chunk of people who rebuild sports cars use the wheels off some other car and take its salvage title and VIN. Cheaper insurance and fewer regulation issues(In TN it doesn't matter but if you move it might).

Fooling insurance companies and state organizations are entirely difference situations. State Farm doesn't have officers that can send you in for evaluation if they see something out of place, the state of CA does.