Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[gone-ot]

...in AZ, it's "...up to 10% ethanol..." but typically only runs about 5% ethanol except during winter months in Phoenix and Tucson.

[Funny]

Originally Posted by AeroModder

In Oregon, all gas is E10, with special exemptions for off-highway vehicles and farm equipment. All gas stations are required to sell E10.

But after asking a local legislator about the law, I found out it is legal for me to use E0 in my road car, even though the law states specific cases where non-blended gas can be used.

So if I picked up some unblended gas in Washington or Idaho on my way into Oregon I could get thrown in the clink? Why would you have to ask that? Do they stop out of state drivers in California when they come in with an emission-spewing 90s vehicle that's out of tune? Probably...now that I think about it...

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by AeroModder

I All gas stations are required to sell E10.

I can understand that part

Originally Posted by AeroModder

But after asking a local legislator about the law, I found out it is legal for me to use E0 in my road car, even though the law states specific cases where non-blended gas can be used.

I cannot understand this part, if they were to require a vehicle incapable of operating on ethanol gas like a 70 subaru 360 or any number of other small gas engines I would think it would be totally unenforceable, same is true of requiring what gas you personally put in your car, they can dictate what is sold but cannot dictate what you burn in the car as federal law states all hydrocarbon based additives are legal to burn in gas (I would also estimate the reverse)

[nibs]

Help me out here, alcohol is a very clean burning fuel, it is a renewable resource. Are folks trying get the maximum miles per gallon, or the minimum pollution per mile?
Having said that, corn ethanol is just dumb! Cane alcohol is much better, and alcohol from cellulose is now on the market, and is a good source of alcohol. Probably the best source will be fermentation products from algae. I have long been an advocate for alcohol as a fuel, if Indy race cars can burn it, why cannot car makers build cars to burn it?

[gone-ot]

...because it's not a good ENERGY-per-gallon-per-dollar fuel.

...ethanol costs ~$1.74 per gallon to produce, while gasoline is only about ~$0.95 -- see the fourth bullet down in this article)

http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

[nibs]

What are you basing that on? I agree that corn ethanol is just a sop to the corn belt, but there are much better (cheaper) sources of alcohol.

[gone-ot]

...what part of $UB$IDIZED aren't you translating here?

[nibs]

Hey, I am trying to learn. I think you are basing your opinion on CORN ethanol.
Have you considered cane, cellulosic, or other sources, that are not $ubsidized.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by nibs

Hey, I am trying to learn. I think you are basing your opinion on CORN ethanol.
Have you considered cane, cellulosic, or other sources, that are not $ubsidized.

I don't think you will get any argument here that our argrabusiness model in this country is dumb all the way around.

Even corn ethanol could be much more workable, iff

1. We only used the excess that was too old (and there is a lot of it)
2. We did not burn fuel to ferment the corn (the old fashioned method of malting and fermenting that takes more space and time but also does not use significant fuel to ferment)
3. We did not mandate X amount and instead based supply on what was readily available

The 3 statements above and a 4th, don't use gas to grow the ethanol "source" and any source of ethanol would be much more viable.

It is possible to adhear to the above rules but much more initial investment in production area would be needed and the plants would be more feasable down south where it is warm and up north when it is warm.

Another thing is that cars DO NOT NEED GASOLINE TO BURN ETHANOL!

I believe if we wanted ethanol cars, the cars should have been fully setup as an E100 car with glow plugs and altered variable compression and timing.

A true flex fuel motor could vary compression (like a prius), timing and would be optimized for e100 (hydrous) It would truly burn multple fuels (even diesel likely) and would likely be more efficient all the way around.

The economics of Hydrous alcohol are much much much more favorable than dry alcohol which wastes tremendous amounts of energy to make.

As usual we wanted quick, easy, wastefull and to satisfy a vested interest, all the bad things in one.

Cheers
Ryan

[AeroModder]

(5) A retail dealer, nonretail dealer or wholesale dealer may sell or offer for sale gasoline that is not blended with ethanol if the gasoline is for use in:
(a) An aircraft:
(A) With a supplemental type certificate approved by the Federal Aviation Administration
that allows the aircraft to use gasoline that is intended for use in motor vehicles;
or
(B) Issued a type certificate by an aircraft engine manufacturer that allows the aircraft
to use gasoline that is intended for use in motor vehicles;
(b) An aircraft that has been issued an experimental certificate, described in 14 C.F.R.
21.191, by the Federal Aviation Administration and that is required by the manufacturer¢s
specifications to use gasoline that is intended for use in motor vehicles;
(c) A light-sport aircraft, as defined in 14 C.F.R. 1.1, that is required by the manufacturer
¢s specifications to use gasoline that is intended for use in motor vehicles;
(d) A vintage aircraft, as defined by the Oregon Department of Aviation by rule, that is
required by the manufacturer¢s specifications to use gasoline that is intended for use in
motor vehicles;
(e) An antique vehicle, as defined in ORS 801.125;
(f) A Class I all-terrain vehicle, as defined in ORS 801.190;
(g) A Class III all-terrain vehicle, as defined in ORS 801.194;
(h) A racing activity vehicle, as defined in ORS 801.404;
(i) A snowmobile, as defined in ORS 801.490;
(j) Tools, including but not limited to lawn mowers, leaf blowers and chain saws; or
(k) A watercraft.

That's part of the text of Oregon's ethanol mandate, showing specific exemptions from E10 use. Here's the text of the quoted law here: http://www.leg.state.or.us/08ss1/mea.../sb1079.en.pdf . The other bills are HB 2210 and HB 3400.

However, a local farmer's co-op has no problem filling my car with E0. Just in case, I have gas cans that hold enough to fill my tank.