Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[Nerys]

"If you have such a large sampling example, then why would you want any of us to experiment with our cars Nerys."

Because I am ONE PERSON and that is NOT valid evidence especially to politicians who are making MONEY from ethanol adoption.

I need results from more than "just me"

"Avoid the cussing, I think it is a violation of forum rules."

was not aware I cursed. I will review my post and edit out any curses I find. I apologize.


"Your last post precisely demonstrates Frank Lee's statement about you digging a deeper hole for yourself."

so what hole did i dig exactly?

"If we went through the energy and high cost (360 mile round trip for me, are you going to do that because I tell YOU to do so. I doubt it)."

I honestly don't understand this statement? what are you trying to say? I don't want people to go that far out of their way. I want people WHO DO have local access to E0 to give it a try under some semi controlled conditions. Thats all.

"1 million miles.

You seem to think that a vehicle with 300+k miles should never see any decline in mileage."

Why should it? a properly maintained vehicle would have no reason to decline in mileage. That jeep maintained its 22+mpg average for over 300,000 miles. it was not until ETHANOL that the mileage changed.

now here is the litmus test for your presumption that its the age of (that one specific vehicle mind you) when I switch to E0 the mileage jumps BACK to where it usually is 22mpg. I think that kills your argument about mileage don't you think?

"At 20 MPG average that's 50,000 gallons of fuel." (22mpg)

"Your sampling example of 10 cars supports your belief that ethanol is the cause of your problems.

OK, you are right."

I think I am right. the data SEEMS to indicate I am. thats why I want to TEST and not assume.

"The real question is what do you do about it. Is ranting here, calling me and others names, and in general acting pretty nasty got you one more mile out of whatever fuel you are using out of any one of your cars in a million miles."

Only when you act nasty to me. I am sorry but this is reality old mechanic. when your nasty to someone THEN TEND to be inclined to be nasty in return.

what I want is to wake people up to what is going on here. Educate enough people (OR find out I am wrong and fix my problem)

the only way to effect change is by getting enough people together to DEMAND the change.

"I think you already know the answer."

Yes I know the answer. you be nasty and snide with me I will be nasty and snide in return. Non negotiable. Non optional.

Be civil to me and I will be civil in return.

"My log shows my mileage for quite some time, several different vehicles, and tens of thousands of miles.

Every single mile was on E10, except the Corolla, on a trip to Detroit, 4 YEARS AGO."

alas all your data is E10 so its not useful to me unless you can do a few tanks on E0 but it appears you do not have easy access to it.

"I think Pale Melanasian has just seen the fuel in his area switch over to E10, and he gets unreal mileage in his 96 Honda, mostly due to his driving techniques and a very specific low speed commute."

would be interesting to see his results.

"Maybe he can give you a percentage difference in regular E0 vs E10 fuel.

95% of the total writing in this thread is repetitive rubbish written by you. Any other posters helpful suggestions are attacked and ridiculed by you."

Please quote me ONE TIME where I attacked or ridiculed ANYONE who did not first attack or ridicule me. just because you declare it does not make it so.

"We are not your problem, and you are not our problem.

Go on act like a jerk, maybe you could get better mileage by sticking your head out the window and screaming into your own slipstream.

That's what Frank was talking about. It was not over my head."

So frank you whatever come in here. Treat me like a jerk. I REPLY in kind and you cry foul? your joking right?

Let me be clear again. This is non negotiable. Non discussable.

You treat me civil I treat you civil.

you treat me nasty I treat you nasty.

that is the way it is. its not up for dicussion or negotiation. I adhere to newtons law of every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

You treat me nasty I will return equal nasty in the opposite direct back at you.

this is reality. you treat people bad they are going to REPLY bad back to you.

[slogfilet]

I recently found a station in my area with E0, so I am in the middle of my first tank. It's a bit out of the way, and I can only fill up during certain weekday hours before work (cardlock access only during all other hours), but I'm going to try at least one more tank.

The bad news is that this tank of E0 happened to coincide with the beginning of significantly colder mornings in WA, so outside temperature will be a variable.

Oh... I drive a 1994 VX with 210k miles. Gas log is over at gassavers.org.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Nerys

The pinging IS FROM THE E10 I think (not my area of expertise). when I get E0 it stops pinging. (at least it did back then) I did not pay attention to if it pinged when I was on washed gas so I assume it did. I only ran washed gas for a few tanks to confirm if it was worth the drive and expensive to go get some E0 for more testing.

right now I am not washing gas (again only did that for 30 or so gallons of gas last spring) I am just using pumped E10 from any normal gas station.

I can not advance the timing any more without damage to the engine.

I don't understand. You ping on E10, but not on non-ethanol fuel. Is there a difference in octane?

So the only thing you were testing on washed fuel was mileage? And you noticed no pinging when you did?

[Nerys]

I have no idea if the pinging was related to E10 or not. I have no real idea when it started. Let me say again I have NO idea of the pinging is related to the E10 or E0. It was not pinging at the beginning of the year (at least I did not notice it) and I don't RECALL it pinging when I was running E0. when I switched to E10 again I heard it. Its possible it was always doing it and switching fuels "exposed" me to a change in the noise which brought it to my attention and that it was not the actual "fuels" causing it or not.

its not bad (and oddly ONLY under "light" load when I give it juice the noise abates completely) but it also means "I am" at max advance for my particular situation. In fact I should probable retard it a little but I don't want to fiddle with anything till I have all my cards in order.

slogfilet. I look forward to hearing your results.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Nerys

PLEASE tell me your not serious?

I am absolutely serious that there are more btu in 9 gallons of gas plus one gallon of ethanol, than in just 9 gallons of gas. Rest of tirade skipped.

[Nerys]

Facts are facts. Either find me a viable alternative reason or accept it as it is.

I repeated it 4 times with the exact same results. tell me what I did wrong? I measured the fill to within 1/2 cup accuracy.

I am not disputing the energy content of the fuel. in the "tirade" you so conveniently skipped I explained it and I will explain it AGAIN

Energy is not relevant. HOW MUCH OF THAT ENERGY YOU CAN EXTRACT is relevant.

You could have all the energy in the universe but with no way to tap it ...

My point is I believe these cars can NOT properly utilize the energy in the ethanol and in fact the ethanol is so detrimental to the operation of the vehicle that it interferes with its basic operability meaning it can not even fully utilize the energy in the gasoline because of the interference of the ethanol.

WHAT ELSE would explain this result? remember once again this is not a "one off" result. I can repeat this over and over again any time I want.

[UFO]

What I think dcb's point in mentioning the BTU content of the fuel is this:

You are getting more miles on 9 gallons of gasoline than that same 9 gallons with a gallon of ethanol added. Therefore your engine is not running optimally. That is my conclusion as well. There is no witchcraft at work here, and engines are not rocket science.

[123]

Originally Posted by dcb

I stopped reading after this. You specifically said:
10 gallons E10 460 miles
9 gallons of E0 495 miles (35 miles FURTHER)


9 gallons of gas plus one gallon of ethanol is more energy than just 9 gallons of gas. There are plenty of vehicles that make good power on nothing but ethanol.

dcb your comment made me laugh. I think I like you even more now that I see you have a VW I approve of anyone that has a VW. Also I like your Avatar Evil monkey

Nerys

Hmmm 98 Ford Windstar my family had one same year but it was the limited edition much nicer model. Your father is lucky if all he had to replace was the fuel pump. The best thing ever done when buying the Windstar was getting an extended warranty. Its scary when your vehicle starts rolling backwards when parked do to tranny failure. The transmission was replaced more then once in the time the warranty was good. I am getting off topic here.

Weird that you have had so many problems my old Subaru with 240k ran better on E50 then E0 or even E10 and i did not need to replace my fuel pump after using it. Also I have not seen the same results as you when it comes to mileage I got 27 Hwy with the Subaru under normal driving conditions on E10 that's the original EPA rating.

You had problems with pinging? I don't think the ethanol is the problem. One of the reasons race car drivers use ethanol is its anti knock properties plus its a safer fuel.

As for mileage going down with ethanol, burning a little more ethanol because of slight decrease in fuel economy is still better then whats going on right now. Do you know anything about Canada's oil sands/tar sands? Its being called the new Saudi Arabia. Its an environmental disaster just ask the people that live near where its mined and refined who are getting rare types of cancer and other rare diseases plus they cant drink the local water. Not to mention it takes LOTS of energy to produce even more then conventional gas. The US is buying and using millions of gallons of tar sand oil it could be in your car right now.

I know nothing I say nor anyone else will probably change things and you will do what you want its your choice but I for one will not use E0 even though I can buy it.

[Nerys]

Ahh UFO maybe we are just crossing matter particle streams here or something.

but what you just said IS MY ENTIRE POINT.

My engine is not running optimally because its being fed fuel it was never intended and CAN NOT (at least stock) combust properly.

the ethanol has such a bad effect that the engine can not run properly.

now if this was JUST one car I would agree logic would suggest its probably my car. but its 10 cars and there are HUNDREDS of others with anecdotal evidence experiencing the same thing and those are only the vocal ones. I bet there are millions who simply never check their FE and if they DO notice anything they chock it up to higher cost of fuel or the car getting older.

No witchcraft or rocket science.

Just as you said. My engine is NOT running optimally with ethanol present SO MUCH SO that I am better off with a gallon less and no ethanol and the full 10 gallons with ethanol.

thats my entire point.

Mind you there is nothing wrong with my engine. My engine is not the problem here. the FUEL is the problem.

NOW is there a simply won't cost me MONEY (at least not much I have 10 cars I need to modify) way I can MODIFY my engines to run more optimally on E10?

[Nerys]

" Its scary when your vehicle starts rolling backwards when parked do to tranny failure. The transmission was replaced more then once in the time the warranty was good. I am getting off topic here. "


hahahahaha take a wild flippant guess whats being replaced on that 98 windstar RIGHT NOW :-) hehe yeah Not fun.


"Weird that you have had so many problems my old Subaru with 240k ran better on E50 then E0 or even E10 and i did not need to replace my fuel pump after using it. Also I have not seen the same results as you when it comes to mileage I got 27 Hwy with the Subaru under normal driving conditions on E10 that's the original EPA rating."

I notice the "new" epa ratings the give for cars just happen to perfectly match up with the "e10" results people are seeing. HENCE why my cars original rating is 53/58 but its "new" rating is 46/51 or something like that.

Intentional? or maybe they are just using E10 in their cars and forgot to mention that in their results (bad science)


"You had problems with pinging? I don't think the ethanol is the problem. One of the reasons race car drivers use ethanol is its anti knock properties plus its a safer fuel. "

I agree that the ethanol is not likely of any relation to the pinging. it however is NOT safer in fact its quite dangerous. maybe your thinking methanol?? its extremely corrosive and not safe for humans.

"As for mileage going down with ethanol, burning a little more ethanol because of slight decrease in fuel economy is still better then whats going on right now. Do you know anything about Canada's oil sands/tar sands? Its being called the new Saudi Arabia. Its an environmental disaster just ask the people that live near where its mined and refined who are getting rare types of cancer and other rare diseases plus they cant drink the local water. Not to mention it takes LOTS of energy to produce even more then conventional gas. The US is buying and using millions of gallons of tar sand oil it could be in your car right now. "

this is part of what makes me so mad 123.

ONE of the reasons touted for using Ethanol is that we are replacing 10% of our fuel with it so 10% less foreign oil.

but if I am losing MORE than 10% of my fuel economy as the data states well that means Ethanol results in me buying EVEN MORE foreign oil so EVEN MORE problems for canada and their tar sands.

"I know nothing I say nor anyone else will probably change things and you will do what you want its your choice but I for one will not use E0 even though I can buy it."

This tells me you were not looking for a discussion at all that you are quite closed minded. I hope I am wrong but that is what such a statement sends as its message.

Granted if you are seeing less than a 10% drop in FE when using E10 OK from your perspective it might make sense (only if your ignore the ecological damage ethanol production causes but thats another issue)

the problem is thousands upon thousands probably millions of us are losing far more than 10% of our fuel economy. This means we are NOT cleaner NOT greener NOT cheaper and are using MORE OIL than before and wearing our cars out faster and causing more maintenance.