Removing Ethanol from Gasoline

[Nerys]

its fuel injected?? I am curious what more fuel pressure would do and how in the world would I alter that? another pump inline or something??? and why would E10 need more fuel pressure than E0 (just curious)

Why would a hotter engine help? again just curious why would it not need to be hotter on E0? The cherokee already runs (factory) at just below boiling so I can't really make it run any hotter without cavitations issues in the water pump if the coolant start to bubble. (it runs at around 210 from the factory the I6 is a hot running engine)

YES we are guessing that a hotter spark would help but thats not an option. such an upgrade would cost more than the car cost. IE they are very expensive. and a hotter spark would mean its not my car that is at fault. (just thought I would mention that) this means modifying my cars for a new fuel which is not ideal. I might be able to afford to modify one car by say spring time but I sure could never afford to modify all of them.

I will try to learn how to use the Scope I got and read the O2 but as noted I tried 2 different O2 sensors with no change. Either way I want to learn how to use my new toy so I will work on that. Might get us some good data either way.

I trust you to a point dcb you sound like someone who knows what they are talking about. but I need reasons for experimentation since experimentation costs MONEY that I am not in a plentiful supply of HENCE getting a geo metro :-) hehe so don't take my "why why why" as an offense. :-)

[dcb]

I'm only guessing, that it is running lean and can't compensate anymore on e10. I don't know that hotter spark has to cost a lot (used coil off ebay/boneyard). but you are losing money daily, if you can figure out a combination that works then you will be in the black in no time, assuming you don't go overboard on the experiments.

so more fuel pressure means more fuel, less lean, less testing of the limits of the ecu. Can you measure your current fuel pressure? Lets just stick with one car, i.e. the metro.

[dcb]

this is an ingenious, free, though one way, page on increasing pressure on some car by "squishing" the regulator, maybe not yours:
Changing the base fuel pressure

hook up a gauge, start the engine, tap around the inside top with a bolt and hammer to increase spring pressure to desired psi.

[Nerys]

Ahh ok I am no genius at auto mechanics so bear with me but would not lower mpg mean I am running RICH not LEAN?

running richer would use more fuel would it not? ie from your site

"Simply increasing the base fuel pressure will make the engine run more rich at lower boost, and will hurt your fuel economy slightly"

I do believe I have a Fuel Pressure gauge but I thought it said it can't be used on Fuel Injected cars. I will check this weekend.

I also thought the injector controlled the pressure of each squirt ultimately? ie the Metro uses a recirculating fuel system it just cycles from the tank to the engine and back to the tank and the injector "takes" what it needs for each pulse.

Hmm I did not realize I could just use a coil off another car.

They are cross compatible? I have to snatch a new coil for my cherokee (puked on me yesterday at least I HOPE thats the problem I get no spark from the coil) so I can grap another coil when I go get the cherokee coil.

what could would you suggest as hotter and compatible?

I thought it was expensive because when I looked up aftermarket ignition systems well the sticker shock took my breath away :-)

[dcb]

I do not have the application knowledge you seek regarding coils, I would simply look for a large one, i.e. some hot rod kid parting something out. your metro has a pretty standard looking coil I assume.

the guess is the mileage is crappy when lean and loaded. so adding fuel pressure might help. It is a guess. A replacement regulator can be had for $30 or less. But the regulator determines the pressure, the injectors open up for X amount of time based on the assumed pressure.

It may be that the fuel pressure is low because of an old spring in some of your fleet too, dunno, measuring it and comparing to stock might be useful info. you need like a 70psi gauge.

[Nerys]

As for fuel the logical step is to do nothing and have my mechanic hook it up and tell me what the pressure is and see what it should be. if its correct thats a dead end if its not correct and see what happens.

its improbable that all 10 vehicles have low pressure bit its easy enough to check that I will just check it and see.

as for coil I will see what I find I just don't want to go blowing cash to get something that won't work

buying 1 is cheap buying dozens as I find one that works gets expensive :-) does anyone else have a suggestion? is it as simple as larger coil? are they electrically the same? ie just plug it in?

I don't "think" its loaded it takes very very little peddle pressure to keep speed and I run a steady 2200-2400 rpm at cruise and my idle is spot on where the sticker says it should be. but I will find out anyway.

[dcb]

you missed my point, you need to measure fuel pressure to get a baseline, then see what effect changing (I would start by increasing it) has.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Nerys

its fuel injected?? I am curious what more fuel pressure would do and how in the world would I alter that? another pump inline or something??? and why would E10 need more fuel pressure than E0 (just curious)

Why would a hotter engine help? again just curious why would it not need to be hotter on E0? The cherokee already runs (factory) at just below boiling so I can't really make it run any hotter without cavitations issues in the water pump if the coolant start to bubble. (it runs at around 210 from the factory the I6 is a hot running engine)

How would it not help? Heat helps assist combustion and reduces how much spark and advance you need, going richer helps ignite a mix, leaner may help it burn hotter though. More pressure means more fuel, richer mix. A richer mix nets better fuel economy during acceleration and depending on how lean you are potentially during cruise.

Voltage changes or a lift pump "may" slightly increase pressure.

Also how do you really KNOW its 210? The thermostat onboard is notoriously inaccurate, most systems are under pressure so cavitation is usually not an issue until about 230ish. (sometimes higher)

Originally Posted by Nerys

experimentation costs MONEY that I am not in a plentiful supply of HENCE getting a geo metro :-) hehe so don't take my "why why why" as an offense. :-)

In the last few weeks have you ever eaten at a fast food place? For the price of a hamburger you can buy enough Marvel Mystery Oil to dope 40 gallons of fuel or more. IT DOES Work on most older vehicles and DOES NOT COST MASSIVE AMOUNTS TO OBTAIN.
You are right that it may or may not pay for itself, past experience tells me it costs less than what it would take for you to get E0. It worked wonders on our 93 suburban which always had an incorrectable miss on ethanol and passed vacuum tests. We got about 19-24mpg over the life of the vehicle with MMO in the tank which is above average so I'm told (at least for a 350 v8).

Also A little top lube that happens to clean the motor isn't a bad thing, it used to be a pretty standard practice and does increase compression and reduce wear.

I am not alone in using MMO as a snake oil, its one of a couple that actually work and it isn't very expensive either. Sadly its effectiveness was reduced slightly when they took all the sulphur out but it still seemed to work on my Buick.

Cheers
Ryan

[Nerys]

Originally Posted by dcb

you missed my point, you need to measure fuel pressure to get a baseline, then see what effect changing (I would start by increasing it) has.

The only reason I can see to measure the fuel pressure is to see if its on par with what the factory says it should be. I am not really inclined to increase it if its at "stock"

even the link you provided states without boost and taking advantage of the greater amount of fuel this will only enrichen the mix and harm my fuel economy. not improve it.

the evidence says the car is already running too rich (lower fuel economy)

IE if the test this weekend (mechanic confirmed he has FI Pressure tester on the phone tonight) shows me low I still won't have a reason to increase the fuel pressure. I will replace the bad component and test fuel pressure again.

[Nerys]

"How would it not help? Heat helps assist combustion and reduces how much spark and advance you need, going richer helps ignite a mix, leaner may help it burn hotter though. More pressure means more fuel, richer mix. A richer mix nets better fuel economy during acceleration and depending on how lean you are potentially during cruise."

a richer mix by every measure I could find worsens fuel economy. including the link DCB provided. If the car is running lean which fraks with the ECU causing it to "richen" ok that makes sense. but if the fuel pressure is FINE (I have not tested it yet) I see no reason to muk with fuel pressure or temperature.

"Also how do you really KNOW its 210? The thermostat onboard is notoriously inaccurate, most systems are under pressure so cavitation is usually not an issue until about 230ish. (sometimes higher)"

Because I have a PROPER temperature gauge. Calibrated. in my cherokee. I do a lot of wheeling and that vehicle has marginal cooling capacity as it is so monitoring the cooling system is critical.

it runs at 208-210 under load (the thermostat is 190 IIRC) its just how those engines run.

"In the last few weeks have you ever eaten at a fast food place? For the price of a hamburger you can buy enough Marvel Mystery Oil to dope 40 gallons of fuel or more. IT DOES Work on most older vehicles and DOES NOT COST MASSIVE AMOUNTS TO OBTAIN."

I am not sure why your telling me this I already said I would try the MMO and do a cost analysis.

its the VEGGIE OIL I am reluctant to try after reading up on it fraking injectors.

"You are right that it may or may not pay for itself, past experience tells me it costs less than what it would take for you to get E0. It worked wonders on our 93 suburban which always had an incorrectable miss on ethanol and passed vacuum tests. We got about 19-24mpg over the life of the vehicle with MMO in the tank which is above average so I'm told (at least for a 350 v8)."

again I already said I would try MMO as its known to be safe to engines.

its the VEGGIE OIL I am reluctant to try.