Small / economy car deathwatch: we've passed "peak econobox" again

[Fat Charlie]

Originally Posted by California98Civic

The Fit has grown larger but now only matches the 1990 Civic Wagon better as a result.

I still maintain it matches the Accord of the day better. A tad smaller than the Accord and a tad larger than the Civic, but the 2013 Fit had 20# per Hp compared to the older Civic's 25# per Hp and the older Accord's 22# per Hp. Driving-wise, my 2nd gen Fit outclasses my old Accords and smokes the old Civic while being comparable in size and weight.

Using the 2013 Fit as a baseline...
Accord sedan compared to the 2nd gen Fit:
1989 WB 104% Length 111% Width 101% Height 89% Curb weight 113.8% HP 102% #/Hp 110%
2013 WB 111% Length 118% Width 109% Height 96% Curb weight 135.3% HP 161% #/Hp 85.6%

The Accord went from bigger, fatter and with a worse power/weight ratio to biggerer, fatterer and with gobs of extra horsepower to overcome the power/weight somewhat.

Civic hatch compared to the 2nd gen Fit:
1990 WB 98.9% Length 100.1% Width 99% Height 93.5% Curb weight 98.9% HP 78.6% #/Hp 79.4%
2013 WB 104% Length 104.8% Width 104% Height 104.3% Curb weight 110.5% HP 119.6% #/Hp 102.7%

It went from smaller, lighter and wimpier than the Fit to bigger, fatter and (An ass dyno probably can't tell even with an MT) more powerful per pound.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I keep saying over and over, the way you reduce the consumption of something is to tax it, not micromanage design.

Yep. I hear there's an invisible hand somewhere that can sort that stuff out. Unfortunately, taxing is something only commies do. Encouraging innovation is what we do here.

Originally Posted by Xist

"Why didn't you pay $1,000 more for the Civic?"
"It would have cost $1,153.28 more with interest!"
"Yes, but our elbows are touching!"

Don't touch my elbow, I'll miss a shift. Have you seen sports cars from the 50s? They were tiny! They don't compare with what we've got today.

Originally Posted by JSH

The Honda Accord was classified as a subcompact car in 1985 and it is a large car today.

Huh. Wikipedia's entry for the 85-89 Accord calls it a compact. I had always thought of it as a mid sized, even though my parents' 89 replaced an 85 Buick Big-Ass wagon and was parked in the driveway next to a 79 Sedan deVille. The last year of that generation, the 89, was the first import to be the best selling car in the US. It was also back when I read Car & Driver- every year of that platform was on their 10 Best list. But I never thought of it as a compact before.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by California98Civic

Great explanations, JSH. Thanks. Not for nothing, this seems like some serious detail of the policy... you geek out on that or is such knowledge a professional hazard?

Both. I've work in the Automotive, AG, and ATV market for 20 years. Today the vehicles I work with a a bit bigger as seen in my profile picture. We have our own targets in the heavy duty sector and again they can be confusing. Some are in gallons per 1000 ton miles, some in grams CO2 per ton mile, some in gallons per 100 brake horsepower -hours.

What it boils down to is a requirement to reduce fuel consumption by 7-20% from 2014-2017 and another 15-27% from 2021 to 2027. The specific requirements depend on vehicle class (based on GVW) and type (Daycab vs Sleeper and low, mid, or high roof)

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

Huh. Wikipedia's entry for the 85-89 Accord calls it a compact. I had always thought of it as a mid sized, even though my parents' 89 replaced an 85 Buick Big-Ass wagon and was parked in the driveway next to a 79 Sedan deVille. The last year of that generation, the 89, was the first import to be the best selling car in the US. It was also back when I read Car & Driver- every year of that platform was on their 10 Best list. But I never thought of it as a compact before.

Wikipedia and Car and Driver are using "Market Classes". They are squishy relative terms that change with times. The automotive equivalent of the vanity sizing that has caused my "34" waist jeans to actually measure 40 inches.

The federal government classifies cars by interior volume and they don't vanity size. The classes have stayed the same for 4 decades. See the chart California 98Civic posted for the class sizes.

Honda Accord - 4 door sedan
2nd Gen (82-85 -- 97 cu ft (Subcompact)
3rd Gen (86-89) - 103 cu ft (Compact)
4th Gen (90-93) - 107 cu ft
5th Gen (94-97) - 107 cu ft
6th Gen (98-02) - 116 cu ft (Midsize)
7th Gen (02-07) - 117 cu ft
8th Gen (08-12) - 120 cu ft (Large)
9th Gen (13-17) - 119 cu ft (Midsize)
10th Gen (18 - ) - 123 cu ft (Large)

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Xist

I do not have any idea what kind of car you can buy for $140,000 and I doubt you would ever see one parked regularly in front of a house like this.

Have you ever been in a Brazilian favela? Even though it's not the very same circumstance you pointed out, even some econoboxes available here are more expensive than a shack or apartment at some slums.

[Bicycle Bob]

In the 30s, some GM executive got curious about the luxury cars parked in negro ghettos. He discovered that a successful black couldn't spend his money on a better house elsewhere, nor could he buy a luxury car at a dealership, but he could arrange to buy one through a white accomplice. Cadillac then allowed direct sales, but Lincoln did not follow suit for a long time.

[Fat Charlie]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Have you ever been in a Brazilian favela? Even though it's not the very same circumstance you pointed out, even some econoboxes available here are more expensive than a shack or apartment at some slums.

There's a big distance between "any car at all is more expensive than the housing choices available" to "choosing to live in a dump while owning a gratuitously expensive car".

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

There's a big distance between "any car at all is more expensive than the housing choices available" to "choosing to live in a dump while owning a gratuitously expensive car".

Sure, but some folks prefer to show off in a brand-new car while they drown in debt instead of going for an used one still in good shape which had already absorbed much of the worst stages of devaluation. It's a matter of priorities.

[Xist]

Would you rather buy a certified used Lexus or a brand-new Toyota?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Xist

Would you rather buy a certified used Lexus or a brand-new Toyota?

It all depends on which models are available and at which cost.

[freebeard]

Would you rather buy a certified used Lexus or a brand-new Toyota?

Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.

How much are we talking? An all new metal VW 23-window bus body is 17.5K. One could use it for a tiny house to save rent and pay off a Tesla drivetrain conversion.