Small / economy car deathwatch: we've passed "peak econobox" again

[Xist]

How come the Civic gets the same fuel economy as the Fit? Since I generally do not ask people questions that Google should be able to answer, I asked Google! I have not found an answer yet, but this article says that the Civic hatchback barely has 2% more passenger room than the Fit. If you keep scrolling it also says that the Acura TSX Special Edition is better than the Civic Si.

The only useful information that I found was from Bob is the Oil Guy. It sounds like the Fit has sporty gearing even in top gear, while the Civic of the same year revs much lower. Someone also complained that the Fit doesn't have an Eco mode, because driving intelligently is hard!

As always, it sounds like car manufacturers try harder with more expensive models and get lazy with the entry-level ones.

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by Xist

How come the Civic gets the same fuel economy as the Fit? ...

I bet the gearing matters, like you say, and I think the Fit has a drag coefficient like 0.34 or 0.36 while the Civic is more like 0.30 or lower. CdA might be worse, too. Fit must be narrower, but it is also taller.

Part of what made the Fit an "economy car" was the price, not just the FE. Sad to see it go.

[Xist]

Since the vast majority of people finance, it isn't just saving $1,000 up front, but compounding interest. Google says that a manual Fit is $16,190. Experian says "The average auto loan interest rate in the last quarter of 2019 was 5.76% for a new car," and BankRate says a 60-month loan would have $2,482 in interest.

Okay, Google is giving me different information than you guys. Adjust accordingly. It says $20,000 for an LX sedan with a manual transmission. Both of these were the cheapest options. Just changing the purchase price, BankRate says that would accrue $3,066 in interest.

I think that is correct. I needed to calculate it multiple times. I would change the price for the Civic and the payment and interest would go down. Random other things would change.

$584 is less than I expected and a $3,810 was more than I anticipated, so if the difference were $1,000 there would be an additional $153.28 in interest.

"Why didn't you pay $1,000 more for the Civic?"
"It would have cost $1,153.28 more with interest!"
"Yes, but our elbows are touching!"

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Xist

How come the Civic gets the same fuel economy as the Fit?

The Civic uses Honda's new 1.5L turbo engine while the Fit uses the old 1.5L NA engine.

Originally Posted by Xist

As always, it sounds like car manufacturers try harder with more expensive models and get lazy with the entry-level ones.

Buyers expect entry level cars to be cheap which means you can't load them up with expensive tech.

Originally Posted by Xist

Since the vast majority of people finance, it isn't just saving $1,000 up front, but compounding interest. Google says that a manual Fit is $16,190....

Okay, Google is giving me different information than you guys. Adjust accordingly. It says $20,000 for an LX sedan with a manual transmission. Both of these were the cheapest options. ..."

Go directly to Honda for the best info. I also use the "Build page because MSRP never includes delivery charges.

The base Honda LX has a MSRP of $16,190 and a mandatory delivery charge of $955 for a total of $17,145. However nobody in the USA buys a manual anymore (2019 market share was 1%) The cheapest automatic Fit you can buy is $17,945

The base Civic comes with a CVT standard. The base Civic LX is $21,755 with delivery.

So you save $3810 buying the Fit - which is another reason Honda is getting rid of the Fit. It doesn't cost anywhere near $3810 less to build a Fit compared to a Civic. I wouldn't be surprised if Honda sells the base Fit at a loss.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by California98Civic

The 1990 Civic Wagon had 98.4" in wheelbase (161.7 legnth), the 2008 Fit 96.5" wheelbase (157.4 length), the 2020 Civic is 106.3 wheelbase (177.9 legnth), the 2020 Accord is 111.4 wheelbase (192.2 legnth), and the 2020 Fit is 99.6 wheelbase (161.4 legnth).

The Fit has grown larger but now only matches the 1990 Civic Wagon better as a result.

I checked for context and the early 1950s Nash Rambler, one of the original compact cars, had a 100" wheelbase & 176" legnth.

What really matters is interior dimensions not external ones. That is also how how cars are classified. The Honda Accord was classified as a subcompact car in 1985 and it is a large car today. It has grown 3 classes in 35 years but still manages to get 30% better fuel economy and is cheaper (adjusted for inflation)

A 1990 Civic Wagon (116 cu ft) is almost the same size as a 2020 Fit (113 cu ft. The Civic has more cargo room behind the seats while the Fit has quite a bit more passenger room.

[Xist]

I just saw that both were 1.5l and wondered if they used the same engine, so installing a turbo wouldn't be the same as transplanting the Civic drivetrain.

What kind of fuel economy would I get if I bought a 2020 Accord, installed the drivetrain into my 1999 Accord, and sold the rest for parts?

I am pretty sure that the 2.0l Civic would work. Wikipedia says that the K20C2 has 158 HP and 138 pounds-feet of torque and the F23A1 has 150 HP and 192-pound-feet of torque.

Really?! The 2.0 has 8 HP more and 54 L-F less?!

I did not expect that.

[California98Civic]

Originally Posted by JSH

... A 1990 Civic Wagon (116 cu ft) is almost the same size as a 2020 Fit (113 cu ft. The Civic has more cargo room behind the seats while the Fit has quite a bit more passenger room.

I see the point, but I think the external dimensions matter, especially for public perception. Most people know nothing about EPA standards for subcompact or midsize. They think a Fit is a small car because of length and such--and also think the Civic is a midsized car (or at least bigger than a Fit). However, by EPA standards for "EPA Interior Volume" both the 2020 Fit (112.3 cu ft) and the 2020 Civic sedan (112.9 cu ft) are midsized. So how can the CAFE standards affect a Fit differently than a Civic sedan?

From the EPA website:

[samwichse]

Originally Posted by Xist

I just saw that both were 1.5l and wondered if they used the same engine, so installing a turbo wouldn't be the same as transplanting the Civic drivetrain.

What kind of fuel economy would I get if I bought a 2020 Accord, installed the drivetrain into my 1999 Accord, and sold the rest for parts?

I am pretty sure that the 2.0l Civic would work. Wikipedia says that the K20C2 has 158 HP and 138 pounds-feet of torque and the F23A1 has 150 HP and 192-pound-feet of torque.

Really?! The 2.0 has 8 HP more and 54 L-F less?!

I did not expect that.

The Fit is currently an L15A7, the Civic is an L15B7 turbo... so I'd guess interchanging them wouldn't be too hard?

[JSH]

Originally Posted by California98Civic

I see the point, but I think the external dimensions matter, especially for public perception. Most people know nothing about EPA standards for subcompact or midsize. They think a Fit is a small car because of length and such--and also think the Civic is a midsized car (or at least bigger than a Fit). However, by EPA standards for "EPA Interior Volume" both the 2020 Fit (112.3 cu ft) and the 2020 Civic sedan (112.9 cu ft) are midsized. So how can the CAFE standards affect a Fit differently than a Civic sedan?

• EPA vehicle classes are set by interior volume. The Civic is classified as a midsize sedan (110 - 119 cu ft) while the Fit is a small station wagon (less than 130 cu ft)
• CAFE is set by the NHTSA. It is based on footprint (Wheelbase x Track)
• The fuel economy posted on the window sticker of a new car is set by the EPA, based on the CAFE number, but adjusted down by ~ 25% to get the combined rating.

(Yes, it is confusing to have two different government bodies talking about fuel economy and using different ratings for the same car)

• The Fit has a footprint of 40.3 sq ft so it is required to get 49 mpg (CAFE) or 37 mpg (EPA).
• The Civic has a footprint of 45.4 sq ft so it is required to get 44 mpg CAFE or 33 mpg (EPA)

If you take the same platform and lift the vehicle a little bit a car becomes a "Light Truck"

• The Honda CRV is built on the same platform as the Civic and is a very similar size (46.4 sq ft) but because it is a light truck it is only required to get 36 mpg (CAFE) or 27 mpg (EPA)
• Same with the HR-V built on fit platform. It has a footprint of 43.3 sq ft and is required to get 38 mpg (CAFE) or 29 mpg (EPA)

Also cars must increase fuel economy by 5% per year while "light trucks" only have to improve by 3.5%. The lower standards and smaller yearly increases are part of what is driving the push for automakers to replace cars with crossovers.

[California98Civic]

Great explanations, JSH. Thanks. Not for nothing, this seems like some serious detail of the policy... you geek out on that or is such knowledge a professional hazard?