Small / economy car deathwatch: we've passed "peak econobox" again

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

We also don't know the price of the K4 as far as I know. Speculation seems to think it'll be $22,000 and up.

So one thing I'm thinking is that after the Versa and Mirage are out, there will be no more cars that are truely under $20,000 (including destination charges). But, the idea is that cars last longer and can get better fuel mileage. I'm not sure if they are a better deal, an equal deal (breaking even over the life of the vehicle compared to economy cars of old, adjusted for inflation) or if they're just a lot more car for a little more money.

What's with the need for more ground clearance? Are people off-roading in these? Or do people not want to have to sit "down" into a car? Personally I prefer a closer-to-ground feel than sitting up high, even as a commercial truck/bus driver. Not that it's a dealbreaker, although admittedly there are times when I did wish the Avalon were higher. I guess my dream car when I spontaneously become a millionaire would be one that has adjustable suspention. Good thing that's just a dream.

I don't think the average car buyer actually knows the difference between an SUV and a crossover.

I can see why people perfer a hatch with generous luggage space.

It isn't surprising that there will no longer be new cars priced under $20K considering that the median US household income is $75K and the average new car buyer has an income about 50% higher than that. A $20K car with $0 down has a payment of about $325 a month. That is about 5% of that median household's monthly income.

There is no doubt that cars are a better deal today that the last 3 - 4 decades. Comparing like to like they cost lest adjusted for inflation and are much better. Size, power, fuel economy, reliability...

Why do people want more ground clearance? Wel are generally talking about a range of 6.5 - 7.5 inches. That helps for gravel roads and in the snow belt. However, that isn't the primary draw. As you said, people like to sit higher. The higher seat height not only makes getting in and out of the car easier but also give better visibility in traffic. And then there is fashion.


The crossover name has no real meaning anymore - marketing department have stretched it so far that basically anything that is unibody and not a sedan or pickup is called a crossover today. Same with marketing class sizes that say an Accord is mid-size. That is about as accurate as my that say they have a 36" waist but actually measure 40". Vanity sizing is for both clothes and cars.

[redpoint5]

I can hardly believe it, but I'm actually considering a new vehicle purchase (in addition to a used minivan) and feel about 50% confident to get a Model Y.

I was just thinking how my last vehicle purchase was in 2010, and I bought a 2006 Acura. When it was new, it cost $32k. It had all the greatest features for the time, even including voice activated control of things like the radio, phone, or climate control.

Nearly 2 decades later, you can get a Tesla Model Y with autopilot and tons more features than my Acura, with way more horsepower, for about the same price (after subsidies). That's the same price not adjusted for inflation. If we adjusted for inflation, the Model Y would cost less than my entry-level Acura.

This is to say Jason is right that $20k isn't that much considering what inflation has done over the last few years, and cars are way better now than even a decade ago. Heck, the new Prius Prime has quite a bit more horsepower than my Acura.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I can hardly believe it, but I'm actually considering a new vehicle purchase (in addition to a used minivan) and feel about 50% confident to get a Model Y.

I was just thinking how my last vehicle purchase was in 2010, and I bought a 2006 Acura. When it was new, it cost $32k. It had all the greatest features for the time, even including voice activated control of things like the radio, phone, or climate control.

Nearly 2 decades later, you can get a Tesla Model Y with autopilot and tons more features than my Acura, with way more horsepower, for about the same price (after subsidies). That's the same price not adjusted for inflation. If we adjusted for inflation, the Model Y would cost less than my entry-level Acura.

If I were to get an EV again, it would be hard to not go for a Tesla. They may be far from what I consider ideal for myself, but they have the best EV reputation. The Y is also now their cheapest car when you consider the tax credit.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

This is to say Jason is right that $20k isn't that much considering what inflation has done over the last few years, and cars are way better now than even a decade ago. Heck, the new Prius Prime has quite a bit more horsepower than my Acura.

If you consider inflation there have been lots, and I mean lots of cars for under $20K. For an example, the Geo Metro would be around $15k today. What is more is the Metro XFI got some 50mpg on the highway, whereas a Chevy Trax only gets 32. So it is both more expensive even accounting for inflation and gets worse fuel mileage. Add to that that car insurance is higher today than in the 90's.

What the Trax and other similar vehicles have going for them is they are bigger, safer, more powerful and get better emissions. The Trax also has a tow rating. So no, they are not cheaper. You are paying more. A Trax today is more than what a Geo Metro would be even when adjusting for inflation. But you get more car. Is that a deal for everyone? I'm not entirely sure. I don't need a bloated CUV. I want a sedan. A sedan meets my needs just fine. That or a small hatchback. So paying more for a crossover wagon doesn't really appeal to me.

If I were to buy a new car in 2025 I'd be a bit divided, but I think a Corolla hybrid would ultimately win. Accounting for fuel, I'd be spending less overall than in the Trax in just 2 and a half years. I'd have to add a spare tire somehow and a tow hitch that will probably drag on the ground. But I don't need so much bloat, especially not for a GM 3 cylinder turbo that will always be under boost and cylinder-washing enrichment and a transmission that's reportedly having problems in other vehicles already.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

If you consider inflation there have been lots, and I mean lots of cars for under $20K. For an example, the Geo Metro would be around $15k today. What is more is the Metro XFI got some 50mpg on the highway, whereas a Chevy Trax only gets 32.

It does amaze me that the 2017 CX-5 I'm driving now gets the same fuel economy my 1996 Subaru Legacy was getting. They're both AWD. Don't know why those Mazda's get such poor fuel economy AND are gutless.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

If you consider inflation there have been lots, and I mean lots of cars for under $20K. For an example, the Geo Metro would be around $15k today. What is more is the Metro XFI got some 50mpg on the highway, whereas a Chevy Trax only gets 32. So it is both more expensive even accounting for inflation and gets worse fuel mileage. Add to that that car insurance is higher today than in the 90's.

You are comparing apples to bananas. The Geo Metro was subcompact car with an internal volume of 97 cu ft. The Trax is classified as a station wagon but using sedan classes it would be a large car with the internal volume of 123 cu ft.

The Corolla Hybrid is great if you want a compact sedan but it is almost 20% smaller than a Trax.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

It does amaze me that the 2017 CX-5 I'm driving now gets the same fuel economy my 1996 Subaru Legacy was getting. They're both AWD. Don't know why those Mazda's get such poor fuel economy AND are gutless.

Fun fact:
Back when Mazda canceled the MAZDA6 Wagon in favor replacing it with the CX-5 The 6 Wagon got better fuel mileage, had more power and acceleration, had more passenger room and cargo room, and cost less than the CX-5.

You can't escape the laws of physics. Crossovers are less aerodynamic, and there are consequences as a result.

Originally Posted by JSH

You are comparing apples to bananas. The Geo Metro was subcompact car with an internal volume of 97 cu ft. The Trax is classified as a station wagon but using sedan classes it would be a large car with the internal volume of 123 cu ft.

The Corolla Hybrid is great if you want a compact sedan but it is almost 20% smaller than a Trax.

Of course its an apples to bananas comparison. It's an apples to bananas comparison because we're running out of apples (and maybe we've gone bananas ). But you're the one who started it. I had asked what is the new economy car and had mentioned it might be the Chevy Bolt, had it lasted, in reference to a new car that costs the least amount possible to own and operate over the life of said vehicle. But then you came back with the Trax.

We're talking about economy cars here. If the sole purpose of a car is basically to get one's rear end from point A to point B for as little money as possible, what car would that be? Of course a used car would probably fit in there, and here we are talking about new cars. But if someone wants new and cheap-as-possible for commuting, not for hauling a family that probably has a garage they don't use other than for storage of their stuff, what would that be?

The point is that the equivalent of the eco cars of yesteryear are dissapearing, with the excuse that everyone needs more space. Right now the Nissan Versa and Mitsubishi Mirage are close in price and size to what a Geo Metro would be, but actually cost more and get worse fuel mileage. And those cars are dissapearing. What replaces them? That's the question? What replaces the Geo Metro?

In my own circumstances, why should I consider a Trax if I'm doing up to 30,000 miles a year and don't carry hardly anything around in the trunk as is?

All of this makes the Trax irrelevant because while it is a better deal than a 1980's GMC Jimmy, it's not a better deal than a Geo Metro, if all a person wants is a commuter.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Fun fact:
I had asked what is the new economy car and had mentioned it might be the Chevy Bolt, had it lasted, in reference to a new car that costs the least amount possible to own and operate over the life of said vehicle.

A used Bolt likely is your best bet over the next 15 years. It has a new, higher capacity battery, and so far battery degradation is not showing to be a problem. The reduced range in the winter has been mentioned, and if that combined with the fact that DCFC is limited to 55 kW is still acceptable to you, I'd be giving the Bolt serious consideration, and soon.

While I can't predict the used car market, it's about as low as it's ever been for EVs. What are the odds it will go lower, vs begin to increase soon?

If you could plug in at work, even on a standard receptacle, that would be icing on top of the cake. You'd be getting 32 miles of range back in 8hrs.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

If you could plug in at work, even on a standard receptacle, that would be icing on top of the cake. You'd be getting 32 miles of range back in 8hrs.

I can plug in at work. That's what I did with the Nissan Leaf we had, I'd drive to work and plug it in whe whole time I was there. Even now I plug in our Avalon's block heater at work. The nice thing about the Leaf is with it plugged in it would precondition the cabin. Not a necessary feature but it was nice. The Leaf was my wife's favorite car too. I miss the dual sunvisors per side.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I can plug in at work. That's what I did with the Nissan Leaf we had, I'd drive to work and plug it in whe whole time I was there. Even now I plug in our Avalon's block heater at work. The nice thing about the Leaf is with it plugged in it would precondition the cabin. Not a necessary feature but it was nice. The Leaf was my wife's favorite car too. I miss the dual sunvisors per side.

Get the friggin' Bolt, and thank me and Jason later. It's a fantastic car, and there's less talk about problems on that forum than any other car forum I've been on.

That will free you from contemplating this car or that, for the next decade or so.

When you find yourself with extra cash later on, the car is compatible with Comma AI, should you want to dabble with self-driving.

[ME_Andy]

The EPA changed their method of fuel mileage calculation since the time of the Metro. (2007)