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Old 04-26-2019, 04:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
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A friend of mine has a 2016 Model X. She paid $8000 for Autopilot + Full Self Driving. She was promised an over the air software update in 2-3 years that will turn her car into a fully autonomous vehicle. How long should she have to wait before Tesla is forced to refund that $8000?
There's a legal case to be made there. I don't know contractually what the Full Self-drive option said, but then I doubt most people who purchased do because people don't read contracts anymore. That's the whole reason why most people in the early 2000s had cell phone contracts that read something like "you agree to pay the full monthly bill on time for the entire 2 year contract, and we guarantee nothing. You may never get cell coverage, and our network may break and never be fixed. If you terminate this agreement early, you pay $300 early termination fee".

Anyhow, when contracts are sufficiently unreasonable or difficult to interpret, courts return the parties back to their state prior to the contract; which would be your friend getting back the $8,000, and Tesla disabling that feature.

BTW- I think something like $5k of that $8k is for autopilot, which is working. The refund would be more like $3k then.

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Old 04-26-2019, 05:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
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BTW- I think something like $5k of that $8k is for autopilot, which is working. The refund would be more like $3k then.
She didn’t spend $5k on “autopilot” to have adaptive cruise control and lane keeping. She spent the 5K because it is required to get Full Self Driving. She told us with a straight face that in 2 years her car was going to drive her to work in the morning while she slept. That is the dream Musk is selling for $8k.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JSH View Post
She didn’t spend $5k on “autopilot” to have adaptive cruise control and lane keeping. She spent the 5K because it is required to get Full Self Driving. She told us with a straight face that in 2 years her car was going to drive her to work in the morning while she slept. That is the dream Musk is selling for $8k.
Perhaps there's another legal case to be had there; if you purchased something with the understanding that it was necessary for something else to work, and that something else is not made available, then you should be able to get back your money. I'm no legal expert though. Sometimes that's just a risk consumers bear.

I guess the $5k was "Enhanced Autopilot" which is more than standard Autopilot. I don't follow Tesla closely enough to know the difference.

I'd push for a refund for several reasons. First, because self-driving wasn't made available in a reasonable timeframe. Second, because it's sure to come down in price over time. I'd rather pay a lower price when the product actually comes out, and the kinks get worked out.

There's a price to pay for being an early adopter, or essentially being a "go fund me" participant. Sometimes you get cool stuff before other people, albeit with various bugs to work out.

Frustration with Tesla seems reasonable to me, but I don't get why people with no stake in the game are so passionate. I considered putting a $1k deposit down on the 3, with almost no intention of actually buying. Just figured I didn't need the money and it opened an opportunity should I want it. Glad I didn't, because the reservations did practically nothing.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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They aren't self-driving yet but Teslas are still one of the best values on the market. I read a lot about this- their motors are just more efficient.

Yes, there are more ev competitors emerging but their engineering isn't at the same level, they sell fewer, and they sell at a loss. You can get a Tesla for roughly the same price as a Kia ev. Hmm, I know which one I'll take.
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Old 04-27-2019, 12:06 AM   #25 (permalink)
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The Kia has a $3750 advantage over Tesla in the US. In less than a year it will have a $7,500 advantage.
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Old 04-27-2019, 01:20 AM   #26 (permalink)
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The extra $4k is well worth it to get a sports car over a soccer mom Kia, IMO. Sounds like you're talking about government subsidies that are out of Tesla's control.

Also, there's the Supercharger network.
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Old 04-27-2019, 04:35 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Canada is playing mean. But the US may well extend the tax credit for an additional 400,000 cars. And there's the rest of the world to compensate, including the RHD countries that Tesla will roll out Model 3s to starting next week.

Meanwhile the SEC and Tesla reached an agreement: no fine, but tighter rules over what to tweet and what not.
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Old 04-27-2019, 05:51 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ME_Andy View Post
They aren't self-driving yet but Teslas are still one of the best values on the market. I read a lot about this- their motors are just more efficient.

Yes, there are more ev competitors emerging but their engineering isn't at the same level, they sell fewer, and they sell at a loss. You can get a Tesla for roughly the same price as a Kia ev. Hmm, I know which one I'll take.
I would take a Kia Niro EV over a Tesla even at the same price. They are a solid car company with good quality that is almost certain to be around to handle any warranty issues. The hatchback design is way more functional and then there is the interior. I won’t buy a car with all the controls on a touchscreen in the middle of the dash.

Tesla also sells EVs at a loss.
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:24 AM   #29 (permalink)
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The difference is many companies sell their EVs at a marginal loss while Tesla does not. I'm not saying Tesla is in good financial standing, only that they are closest to making a profitable EV line.

The price on the Model 3 was reduced following the first credit phase out, which tends to create a ceiling on price. If the full federal tax credit comes back for a short period of time, I'd be inclined to get a base Tesla. It would be about $25,000 out the door if I work things correctly. Perhaps they'll have even more kinks worked out with fit and finish by then. I'd probably need to order it now if I wanted it in 6 months though.
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Old 04-27-2019, 03:37 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ME_Andy View Post
The extra $4k is well worth it to get a sports car over a soccer mom Kia, IMO. Sounds like you're talking about government subsidies that are out of Tesla's control.

Also, there's the Supercharger network.
I was watching a TFLcar video on YouTube yesterday. They backed into the edge of the garage on their brand new model 3 they bought when the $35,000 version was announced they had been waiting for. Of course they couldn't get a $35,000 and justified buying the upsell the the $50,000 version but that's another story. So they had to find a Tesla authorized shop in the Denver area and talked a bunch to an actual technician who pulls apart the Teslas, fixes them, and puts them all back together. He said basically they aren't that impressive in what Tesla is doing but he did say the model 3 is the best. He said get all up inside an Audi for instance and you really see the difference in engineering and build quality. BTW the minor, slow speed collision was like $6500 and could go higher once they peal back the outside layer of the onion.

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