Toyota to make some EV's. Why are they so ass-ugly?

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by JSH

Yes, there are incentives to buy EVs in the USA but the federal EV tax credit isn't available to the people that need it the most.

It is pretty laughable to say there are incentives to not buy an ICE vehicle in the USA. Gas is cheap and our CAFE requirements are weak and designed to favor larger vehicles and "trucks". Automakers are sitting on lots of fuel efficiency technology because it simply isn't needed to meet regulations in the USA and the average US car buyer doesn't care about fuel economy.

The average new vehicle's fuel economy has only increased 14% since the late 80's and dropped from 2018 to 2019.

EPA's latest Automotive Trend Report (2019)
https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trend...-trends-report

What are the minimum efficiency requirements for EVs? What percent of the electric bill represents taxes?

CA has an average gasoline price of $4 currently. Of that, 72 cents is taxes, or 18%. When gasoline prices are lower, the taxes represent higher proportions of the cost.

The argument that lower income people have less means is pointless to mention because that is always the case. That's the inevitable outcome of absolutely everything in the universe being distributed unequally. Putting lower income people into EVs doesn't even make sense considering they are less likely to own a home in which they can charge it, can't afford to spend $2,000 on an L2 charger, and shouldn't be buying brand new vehicles in the first place.

I'm not finding your counter compelling to my statement that there are massive government incentives to purchase EVs that ICE don't share, and disincentives levied on ICE that aren't reciprocated to EVs. Of course, "massive" is subjective.

Maybe we should pass a law giving every licensed driver a taxpayer funded EV for free. Every person just buys an EV for the person to their left, and we all get a free EV.

[JSH]

What is the efficiency requirements for EV's. Does it matter? The least efficient EV for sale in the USA get the equivalent of 70 mpg. Do you think we need to start regulating EV efficiency at this point?

Yes, there a poor people that don't buy new cars that no amount of incentives will get them into an EV. Why do people arguing against tax credits always go to the extreme case?

The USA still has a pretty broad middle class that owns their own home and buys new cars. They could charge at home if they had an EV. However, they don't have the budget to spend $5,000 to $10,000 more on a car to get an EV. These are the people that incentives can be the deciding factor. However, middle class people don't get the full EV tax credit. A family of 3 making $70K a year would only get $3029 for the Federal EV tax credit. They would need to make $107K a year to get the full $7500.

Where is the logic that a family making $70K a year should get a smaller EV tax credit than a family making $107K a year?

Same with gas prices. Why quote the extreme case instead of the average case? If we are talking federal incentives the Federal gas tax is 18 cents a gallon and hasn't changed since 1993. Paying 18 cents a gallon in fuel taxes isn't going to make someone decided they need to go out a buy an EV.

[Isaac Zachary]

Here's a hypothetical situation:

Year one, gas is $5 a gallon everywhere in the US. A few more people become interested in EV's

Year two, gas is $6. More rich people start scambling for getting an EV or some other sort of super efficient transportation.

Year three, gas is $7 a gallon. Pretty much every person who has the means of buying an ultra fuel efficient alternative or EV has. But those that can't afford it haven't since the car market is catering to the rich first as it always has.

Year four, year five, gas is $8 then $9 a gallon, and the trend is pretty much the same.

Year six, gas is $10 per gallon. The EV's bought by the rich are now finally trickling down. But they're holding their value because of good ol' supply and demand. So the poor, who now are the only people paying $10 per gallon on fuel, give up on having a vehicle and the public transportation sector becomes saturated. Whether the public transportation sector will be able to keep up is a good question. But lets say the rich heavily invest and it does.

Year seven, eight, nine, ten, twenty, thirty, etc. things eventually will go back to the way they were. More and more used EV's will keep hitting the market and eventually the poor will transition from public transportation back to personal vehicle transportation, as long as they have a place to charge it.

Now what that has to do with what Toyota EV's will look like is beyond me.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

A family of 3 making $70K a year would only get $3029 for the Federal EV tax credit. They would need to make $107K a year to get the full $7500.

Where is the logic that a family making $70K a year should get a smaller EV tax credit than a family making $107K a year?

Of course that tax credit should, in theory, trickle down into the used car market, which is where those of us that make around $70,000 a year usually buy.

But this whole EV market is a new thing. It's not like the changes we've seen to cars before. You need a place to charge them, they have a limited range, we have little idea of the true longevity of them. Are these going to be the kind of vehicle that all of the sudden it doesn't run because it needs a $10,000 battery? Or what if the battery is part of the vehicle and non-changeable?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

As long as the sidecar and motorcycle can hold my wife, three kids and myself.

Not actually impossible to make it work that way, as long as you're not in a real hurry.

I did fit 8 people in a two door Mazda 323 in Mexico once.

Before using seatbelts became mandated in Brazil, it was not really unusual to do, even though a 2-door Mazda 323 is unobtainium here

I don't know what the prices used to be in Mexico, but even though they have cheaper economy models not available in the USA, they are currently still prohibitively expensive, especially by Mexican wage standards. And the used market is not like the one in the USA. Vehicles hold their value for much longer. Those that I know that own cars in Mexico, and I know a lot of people that live in Mexico, all spend a huge portion of their income on owning what we would consider a clunker in the USA.

Same or even worse in Brazil, and the prices of new vehicles skyrocketting within the last 6 years also raise the prices of used cars.

[rmay635703]

The main problem is EVs are like a desktop computer or cell phone

After 3 years they are hopelessly obsolete and valueless/harder to use.

People might still enjoy them as a second car but if it costs to much in taxes and insurance why put up with the bother of it?

The government needs to make sure you ACTUALLY save money by owning an old EV to ensure the used buyers even consider the things.

As an aside half of US bought 2011 Nissan leafs have been exported overseas, if you find that disgusting we really need to fix the TCO issue and it’s not the up front price of a used leaf that is the issue

Many people would put up with limited EVs if they didn’t cost so much to keep

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The main problem is EVs are like a desktop computer or cell phone

After 3 years they are hopelessly obsolete and valueless/harder to use.

Even though electronics may become obsolete quite quickly, it may not render them useless or harder to use within such timeframe. Unless some software gets no longer supported for their hardware. IIRC some years ago Whatsapp quit providing updates suitable for certain cellphones.

As an aside half of US bought 2011 Nissan leafs have been exported overseas, if you find that disgusting we really need to fix the TCO issue and it’s not the up front price of a used leaf that is the issue

Considering most of the export markets for 2nd-hand cars are third-world places, it does surprise me the early US-spec Nissan Leaf would find its way as a 2nd-hand export.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Even though electronics may become obsolete quite quickly, it may not render them useless or harder to use within such timeframe. Unless some software gets no longer supported for their hardware. IIRC some years ago Whatsapp quit providing updates suitable for certain cellphones.




Considering most of the export markets for 2nd-hand cars are third-world places, it does surprise me the early US-spec Nissan Leaf would find its way as a 2nd-hand export.

I don't know if this is what @rmay635703 is referring to, but the thing about electronics nowadays isn't the electronic side of them, but the battery. Batteries are soldered in, made part of the device, and when they die so does the whole device because you can't afford to stick another one in there.

In my experience replacing a battery in devices such as laptops, tablets and smartphones goes a bit like this.

• 5 years after owning the device the battery doesn't seem to hold enough of a charge. So you go looking for one. The manufacturer almost never provides replacement batteries, so you're stuck with an aftermarket one. Batteries are no longer user replaceable so you have to pay a lot of money to have your device repaired by a shop, or you try to do it yourself and end up wrecking the screen and a bunch of other important parts. Then when it's finally done your new battery feels about as terrible as your old battery did. And 6 months later your battery is completely dead, making you wonder if you should have just stuck it out with the original battery.

The 24kWh Nissan Leaf has a battery good for around 84 miles when new. The battery is considered past it's usable life expectancy at 70% of that, or 58 miles of range, which for some has happened in just a few years time. Then you go to get another one and it's nearly $9,000. Mind you your car is now worth only about $3,000 once it's old enough that the battery has no warranty.

Are people going to go put a $9,000 in a car that's worth only $3,000 just so they can get a few more years out of it?

Tesla and a few others seem more promising than Nissan from a longevity standpoint. But what will happen after 10, 20 or 30 years? Will they need new batteries? Plus, companies like Tesla are working towards integrating the batteries into the frame of the vehicle. So once your batteries need replaced, so does your whole frame. I don't think that's going to be cheap.

Tesla has already been a company that seems to be against right to repair. It's the right to repair that makes old cars feasible to buy and drive. But if you can't repair them, then they become worthless.

This wouldn't be bad if for one, they can be recycled. And two, something is done for those who used to recycle old cars, the poorer communities. Right now, if you sell your 10 year old car some kid just out of highschool or a family that picks beets for $8 an hour is going to want it. They'll pay a couple grand for such a car, more or less, but they'll put it to good use.

But if your car won't start because the EV battery is dead and it's part of the car's frame and unrepairable, your car is worthless. Nobody can use it without heavily modifying it, which may be out of some people's reach.

Here in the USA, that would mean that those people would have to look elsewhere to get transportation. Would cheaper EV's be sold to those people like the cheaper cars are sold in other countries? Would there be more public transportation? Or would these people just have to walk because they can't afford a new car? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

The main problem is EVs are like a desktop computer or cell phone

After 3 years they are hopelessly obsolete and valueless/harder to use.

People might still enjoy them as a second car but if it costs to much in taxes and insurance why put up with the bother of it?

Wisconsin adding a $100 fee to register an EV doesn't make used EVs obsolete. A 2012 Nissan Leaf still plugs into a Level 2 charger and charges

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Are people going to go put a $9,000 in a car that's worth only $3,000 just so they can get a few more years out of it?

Nissan's original battery is warrantied for 8 years / 100K miles. The replacement is also warrantied for 8 years / 100K miles. So the question is: Will someone pay $1125 a year to keep driving their Leaf? Batteries are basically like prebuying fuel.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

Wisconsin adding a $100 fee to register an EV doesn't make used EVs obsolete. A 2012 Nissan Leaf still plugs into a Level 2 charger and charges

But you don't need a level 2 charger for a 2012 Leaf. It'll charge up to full on a 120V outlet in about 8 hours.