toyota sales halted (of 8 models)

[user removed]

My 37 Ford had a starter button on the dash and a keyed ignition switch on the steering column. Locked the steering wheel also.

You could crank the engine until it had oil pressure, then key on the switch and start it up. Manual choke and separate throttle pull buttons on the dash below the radio.

regards
Mech

[user removed]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

If it's a software problem, why are they recalling only the cars with the CTS pedals?

I spent 30 years working on cars as they became more and more complicated.

It finally got to the point where diagnosis became the major part of the bill and repair became a much smaller percentage of the time.

Some customers would say, " I don't want to spend a lot of money on hit and miss guessing trying to solve the problem, and I don't believe it should take 20replaced parts to fix it either."

In most cases they were right, and I saw a lot of nightmares where other shops had done all kinds of preventative maintenance, but when it came to actually FIXING the problem they didn't have a clue.

My good friend and lunch buddy's father owns their body shop, and they rebuild salvage cars. They had a Focus that would stall on cold starts repeatedly. They took it to two different dealers and neither one could fix the car.

He was going to take this car he had rebuilt and park it in the back lot and tear it apart for parts to other cars, after spending a lot of time rebuilding it.

I said "Not on my watch" and spent 14 hours figuring out it was the fuel pressure sensor. All the factory service bulletins said replace the fuel pump, fuel pump module, clean all the wiring harness grounds, etc, etc.

Two Ford dealers couldn't fix it and spent $600 guessing. I went to a Ford dealer and got every relevant TSB on the car.

When I stopped trying to let everyone else tell me how to fix it and started thinking with my old mechanics brain, I just got lucky and guessed right. They had a parts car out back that ran fine but was too smashed up to rebuild. Pulled the part off and replaced it in 5 minutes.

I applaud every single one of you younger folks who grew up in the age of computers and are more comfortable with them than I feel I am. I may be wrong but it seems to me as the systems get more complicated the potential for chain reactions of more than one defect can really be a nightmare to actually figure out completely.

We used to kid around with our customers talking about replacing fictional parts that did not exist on their cars, all in good humor and not trying to scare them for more than a few seconds. One of my friends who worked for a Chrysler dealership told me their was 13 electronic control units on a Chrysler minivan. I can't imagine how much of a diagnostic nightmare that can be when someone goes in to that system and starts butchering wires to do some dumb mod and creates a nightmare that defies any logical diagnostic process.

I had a customer once come in my shop. He told me he drove 600 miles and his car started running rich loaded up and stalled. After a while he got it restarted and it ran fine after that.

Of course there was no way to diagnose the problem, since we could not duplicate it. We had several used parts in stock that I thought would cover all the things that could cause it to flood out. I replaced 5 parts and it never stalled for 6 months. After that I started putting his old parts back in on at a time. After another 12 months we finally figured out it was a bad ECU.

That was a 1975 280Z, the first year of fuel injection in that model. Today's cars probably have 10 times the electrical circuits compared to that 35 year old Z car.

I bought a 2006 Corolla new with 6 miles on the odometer. In the 20k miles it took them to actually get the 4 wheels properly aligned, they had to take that brand new car to a frame shop and bend the rear axle mounting holes in the uni body to get the alignment right. Got a new set of tires gratis from Toyota at 20,000 miles. I have heard of several other people having alignment problems with that same platform, also in new cars.

"Sorry sir we can not duplicate your problem, so we are unable to fix your car".

Probably that phrase is getting more common every day.

For everyone who tries to blame the vehicle operator, I have a scenario for you. The baby just puked on himself and is choking in the car seat in the back. At that same instant your car decides to take off, on a winding road in the mountains with no room for error. As you try to regain control, you swerve into the oncoming lane of traffic in a blind hairpin curve and you hit another car and it flies over the guard rail and falls down an 800 foot almost vertical drop, killing all 4 people who are in the car. I think there is one person in prison today who is now appealing his conviction due to the Toyota acceleration issue.

It may be years before we finally know what is really happening.

regards
Mech

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

What everyone - starting with the idiot designers at Toyota - seems to be missing is that you can't do the "key off" part because these cars have those stupid pushbuttons instead, where you have to do something non-obvious like hold down the button for three seconds to turn the engine off.

This is what is irritating me about many ads I am seeing with people "pushing the button" Not just Toyota, first thing I always think, is great I can't just shut the thing off.

Also though I may be somewhat incorrect, hobbyist vehicles that require initial inspection must have a key to turn the car on and off per state regulations, no other method is acceptable, perhaps push button is illegal? At least it is if I home build a car?

Also you are required to have a neutral on your transmission per law, I wonder if having a neutral but not allowing it to function is legal?

[dcb]

I think humans should always have a means to physically disconnect a computer, ALWAYS. Not "ask the computer nicely to stop" but to be able to rip out its spine while you are driving. They are good at things like injecting fuel and abs, etc, but we don't need to test their ability to listen to us when we ask them to stop on the road.

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's a good overall assessment of "sudden acceleration" in all makes of cars:

Unintended Acceleration Not Limited To Toyotas : NPR

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's a major recall from GM on March 2nd:

GM To Recall 1.3M Compacts For Steering Problem : NPR

I think that the situation with Toyota has reached the point of piling on; and the ambulance chasers are circling:

Prius With Stuck Accelerator Glides To Safe Stop : NPR

I seriously doubt the gentleman in this Prius had a actual problem -- I think he was put up to this stunt, and if they faked this incident, I would not be surprised. The lawyers smell money, and Toyota is in a weak position, and they will settle for almost any amount of money...

[gone-ot]

Originally Posted by dcb

I think humans should always have a means to physically disconnect a computer, ALWAYS. Not "ask the computer nicely to stop" but to be able to rip out its spine while you are driving.

...remember in the movie "2001: a SPACE ODESSEY" when HAL, the spaceships' computer, is commanded to 'shutdown' by Dr. "Dave" Bowman, and responds with "...I can't do that, Dave..." (ha,ha)!

[cfg83]

Neil -

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

...

I think that the situation with Toyota has reached the point of piling on; and the ambulance chasers are circling:

Prius With Stuck Accelerator Glides To Safe Stop : NPR

I seriously doubt the gentleman in this Prius had a actual problem -- I think he was put up to this stunt, and if they faked this incident, I would not be surprised. The lawyers smell money, and Toyota is in a weak position, and they will settle for almost any amount of money...

I look at it the other way around. The issue is known and every incident is getting more coverage than usual. But you may be right. Let's wait and see.

CarloSW2

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

...remember in the movie "2001: a SPACE ODESSEY" when HAL, the spaceships' computer, is commanded to 'shutdown' by Dr. "Dave" Bowman, and responds with "...I can't do that, Dave..." (ha,ha)!

FU Hal!

[cfg83]

Hello -

Here is another POV from February 1st, 2010 :

Seshadri: Toyota Recall Tests the Company’s Legendary Supply Chain Process

...
In our book on Toyota, we identified five principles that drive supply chain design at Toyota: the choice of volume, variety, variability, velocity and the use of learning, or V4L for short. In addition, we devote a chapter that outlines Toyota’s crisis management process.
...
In the early 2000s Toyota launched a significant drive to cut costs. It reported that substantial savings accrued when it reduced the variety of components. With reduced variety, a defect in a single component affects many assemblies and products. Did Toyota cut costs too much, leaving its supply chain out of tune on the V4Ls? How much responsibility was vested in suppliers, and did they have the capabilities? Should Toyota have developed a second supplier for such a key high-volume part?

Judging by its profits prior to 2007, Toyota had grown immensely profitable. In a similar situation in the mid-1990s, Toyota chiefs became wary of excessive profitability. They invested in the Prius project instead of resting on the laurels of having broken through to the larger car segment in the U.S. market. Did Toyota miss the early signs in 2007 of systemic imbalance? Are they outliers from which CEOs can learn about their system? Do windfall profits signal increase in risk and revenue without concurrent increase in necessary supply chain redesign expenses?
...

This fits with the idea of "industrial monoculture", where one bad design across a majority of your products can bring you to your knees.

CarloSW2