Van instead of SUV?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary

But on that note of third row seats, it kind of bugs me that cars seem to be getting bigger and yet seat fewer people than before. When I was a kid there were station wagons that had a third row in the back that faced backwards. (Or parents just put their kids there without seats or seatbelts.) A lot of the mid and full sized cars and SUV's had front bench seats that held 3 people there instead of just two.

I have already seen some station-wagons with extra seating on the trunk, and it was also not unusual to haul kids without a seat. Fold the back seat and there is a playground

To me it's nice having an extra seat. Just one seat can make the difference between taking two cars or just one car. And in my circumstances, that happens a lot.

It happened a lot before my parents got divorced, as a cousin of mine used to live with my grandparents from mother's side. Often we were 6 in an Opel Corsa B (which is meant to seat only 5) when they visited mom, dad and me.

I might get a minivan or even full sized van instead and just keep the hybrid we have now and go back to owning two cars. The hybrid would be our main run around car. And when we need to haul people or stuff we could use the van. But I'll probably wait until I get this car paid off.

No wonder many Argentinians still love small vans such as this Peugeot Partner, which by the way is a Diesel.


Even though it's a 5-seater, it's not uncommon in Argentina to add extra seats to vans, so maybe an 8-seater conversion won't be unachievable.

[teoman]

Cars have grown a bit yes, but people have also grown very significantly.

They do not fit in to the back seats anymore. Some of them can barely get in to the drivers
Seat



http://youtu.be/ab_CDaq5kbA

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by teoman

Cars have grown a bit yes, but people have also grown very significantly.

They do not fit in to the back seats anymore. Some of them can barely get in to the drivers
Seat

That's a valid point. Well, at least most vans are still roomier than a regular car or compact SUV within the same footprint (or even a slightly bigger one), which enables them to be fitted with a more comfortable seating arrangement even if it won't carry a much greater amount of passengers.

[slowmover]

The choices today between van & SUV are impressive. As a topic title it slides right into what I consider as most important: The Family Vehicle.

Baseline decision on a family car, in my strongly-held opinion, is that it be able to carry all of us with luggage. That moment comes it is necessary and one has failed in proper vehicle specification is going to be shattering. It’s When, not If as a decision.

I went into this at length in another thread using the example of Why an adequately-sized sedan had been the choice for 80-years in this country.

In some other places, rail is the expectation to travel cross-country. Cars are primarily for metro areas. A different relationship than in a continent-sized Union of States.

Focusing on FE numbers is not primary, but secondary. Reliability, longevity, highway-stability, crashworthy size, etc, all factor higher.

As does an insulated garage. A garage outfitted to maintenance and some repairs (maybe I can’t, but my brother can). Humidity & temp control. Adequate electric for shop tools (including an air compressor to run pro tools).

[As an aside, my wife & I looked at this and decided that even a short carport architecturally-sound when added over the garage entry was also worthwhile. With floor-ceiling garage cabinetry, finished concrete floor and some nice cosmetic finish, the garage sans cars can be opened to the driveway as an entertainment space. Thus landscaping, etc, needs to support this].

Similar to large context Economy — and I think where things fall down — is the understanding of “convenience “. Who among us hasn’t made a last-minute trip to the store. Dead cold start and three-mile roundtrip?

I think it’s better to categorize that as abuse. A threat to long-term family well-being. Cars used as disposable implements is also a safety threat (there can — “will”, for planning — come that moment where it’s pack & leave immediately). Abusive use is contradictory.

“Convenience” is ONLY in being able to avoid taxi service or public transportation. Where one truly can make better use of time (which I would hold up as time AT HOME with family). Lack of planning & discipline aren’t adult traits.

We moved into an era with BIG gold-plated kitchens where women won’t cook, and we have cars more expensive than houses parked out in the elements that the garage is full of household overflow. Can’t be used at all, in fact.

“Just go buy another one” (live a lifetime in debt over transportation). Bad enough that it’s to housing we are slaves.

Buying “used” may have its place. But if the goal is longest-term ownership — the Grail of Economy — getting vehicle spec right the very first time is critical (but, let’s face it) NOT when it has blue velour seats under a lime-green paint job. New, or closest, is the path. “New” with attendant higher cost may be best. I’d say that if it’s motivation to do right by the vehicle, it’s value-received.

As today’s women have been saddled with expectations none of them are equipped to meet (zero of them are life-long fully supporting; negative tax surplus at end) and family law courts designed specifically to destroy, not maintain their ostensible reason for existence, the genuine evil of D-I-V-O-R-C-E hangs over every marriage. (Giving them the vote when they cannot physically defend that vote, helped initiate this specific slippery-slope).

And what could be a smarter way is discarded (What is historically the proven way). You know a man’s a fool when he quotes “happy wife/happy life”.

Today’s marriages: “I have mine, and you have yours”, coupled to, “you can’t tell me what to do” is prep for failure. And has turned car discussions into this focus on FE numbers. Not miles driven (better home location), not debt slavery, not any of a myriad of ways to use scarce resources wisely. As a family.

The “family” has become hostage to threats by a mentally-forever nineteen year old. Who isn’t equipped for when “prosperity” morphs back into the historically-likelier “scarcity”. Which is any year in America prior to 1940. Television, films, talk shows, schools. Unending bile.

If cars were cheap, AND we weren’t dependent on them it might not matter. It’d be a bargaining chip between husband & wife. The way it’s now treated.

So my suggestion — again — is that one’s role as son, brother, husband & father overrides any talk about “yours versus mine”. It’s too close to center.

A woman without a husband has to be subsidized by other husbands who already have wives. By every definition accruing to “subsidization”.

Cars mean a more expensive house (garage) thus greater land. Thus greater mortgage, insurance & taxes. Thus greater maintenance & repairs to said real property. Etc.

Don’t pull these devices out of their web. A van might be better than an SUV (I’d say it is), but much will come down not to use, but specific design differences (fully independent suspension is a giant tie-breaker, for instance).

FE is the flavor of the cake icing. If that.

Addendum: if as a bargaining chip a sweetener needs to be added, then once-monthly weekend family getaways are the ticket. Start there.

.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by slowmover

The choices today between van & SUV are impressive. As a topic title it slides right into what I consider as most important: The Family Vehicle.

Baseline decision on a family car, in my strongly-held opinion, is that it be able to carry all of us with luggage. That moment comes it is necessary and one has failed in proper vehicle specification is going to be shattering. It’s When, not If as a decision.

One of the reasons I became more favorable to vans over SUVs was their increased capability either to haul more passengers, cargo, or a satisfactory amount of both. The problem here in Brazil is that most options in the 1.0L-engined "people's car" class are small hatchbacks, which are somewhat limited to perform in a satisfactory way all the tasks required from a vehicle that is often the only one available at a household.

I went into this at length in another thread using the example of Why an adequately-sized sedan had been the choice for 80-years in this country.

Either an adequately-sized sedan or a station-wagon. Well, the popularization of the automobile in Brazil is somewhat more recent, with the VW Beetle and its derivatives playing a more important role than anything else. So many families have carried kids in that hole behind the backseat, with roof racks bearing loads and luggages.

In some other places, rail is the expectation to travel cross-country. Cars are primarily for metro areas. A different relationship than in a continent-sized Union of States.

In Brazil it's quite similar to the United States on that matter.

Focusing on FE numbers is not primary, but secondary. Reliability, longevity, highway-stability, crashworthy size, etc, all factor higher.

Take a crashworthy size out of that equation and you'll figure out why the Chevrolet Onix and Chevrolet Prisma are strong sellers here and in some regional export markets. Well, they're at least wider and most likely also slightly longer than a Toyota Etios, which actually seems to be more crashworthy.

As does an insulated garage.

No wonder the Citroën 2CV and the VW Beetle were so popular before anti-freezing radiator fluid became widespread. Plus their basic engine designs were also fitted to some cars roughly 40 years more modern than them such as entry-level trims of the Citroën Visa and earlier versions of the Volkswagen Gol (not Golf).

Buying “used” may have its place. But if the goal is longest-term ownership — the Grail of Economy — getting vehicle spec right the very first time is critical (but, let’s face it) NOT when it has blue velour seats under a lime-green paint job. New, or closest, is the path. “New” with attendant higher cost may be best. I’d say that if it’s motivation to do right by the vehicle, it’s value-received.

Some folks look at a brand-new car as a more fail-proof option than an used one, which is not always the case. It's not uncommon to pick the stripped version readily available on stock, and then having to fit some accessories to suit better the preferences and occasional needs of the buyer, so in the end it may become more expensive than waiting a little more for the vehicle with the right spec. Believe me, sometimes even something as fool as a cigarette lighter could be missed even in a non-smoking household, and it happened 21 years ago when my dad got a brand-new Opel Corsa (locally rebadged as a Chevy) to replace a totaled Fiat Uno. The cigarette lighter was often used as a power outlet for an electric air compressor, so in order to use it in the Corsa the plug was removed in order to allow the wires to be connected directly to the battery poles.

Don’t pull these devices out of their web. A van might be better than an SUV (I’d say it is), but much will come down not to use, but specific design differences (fully independent suspension is a giant tie-breaker, for instance).

My point to claim that a van is often better than a comparable SUV is exactly based on design differences, considering models with a similar external size.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Back in the day before SUVs became widespread in America, I guess nobody would even consider anything too different than this beautiful '53 Dodge Kingsway to be the ultimate family hauler...

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by slowmover

(fully independent suspension is a giant tie-breaker, for instance).

If I got a van or an SUV for that matter, I'd want a solid rear axle so I could put automatic chains on the vehicle. It sure would make it easier. Plus it's not very safe to be out putting chains on in slippery weather. And if the vehicle starts to skid, you can correct the problem with a flick of a button.

[freebeard]

Which button/[switch] would you flick/[press]?

I had a van that I could back up uphill on wet fallen leaves. It had four-wheel independent suspension. Care to guess?






1961 VW.

[Isaac Zackary]

Ya, it depnds on the size. If I wanted something to haul 12 or 15 passengers I'd end up with a full sized van in addition to my car. An 8 passenger minivan would be a happy medium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxOh8Qav5tY

[Hersbird]

Hate to admit it, but we have a Chrysler Town and Country and a Yukon XL (a Suburban) now and we plan on taking the SUV on our Oregon vacation this spring. 6 people for 8-9 days will fit in the minivan and the minivan gets twice the economy, but the Suburban will just be more comfortable for everyone. I figure an extra $70 in gas, the real problem with the minivan is it doesn't have enough room behind the 3rd row for luggage, strollers, beach gear, etc. A full size van would be good, but that would be overkill day to day, and we need the 4x4 and towing capacity the Suburban has for other times.