VW Lupo 3L --> 2L

[Vekke]

Originally Posted by G2TDI

Winter tires usually have softer rubber mixture = more traction = more friction

This is not true. Winter tires has best rolling resistance figures of the current tire models out there. Nokian Hakkapeliitta R is the best out there. In same pole position is Michelin XI2 and few others. No summer tires can match those figures at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_I2q-M8pY4

[Arragonis]

Why do you think they aren't working ? I didn't switch this winter - no snow but I am pondering these Happapapapa thingies when my EcoContants wear out.

[G2TDI]

[QUOTE=Vekke;277979]This is not true. Winter tires has best rolling resistance figures of the current tire models out there. Nokian Hakkapeliitta R is the best out there. In same pole position is Michelin XI2 and few others. No summer tires can match those figures at the moment.


Well as I so often have to point out around the ecomodding topic, there is theory (numbers and figures) and there are real life facts

For anyone who has grown up around real winters and the need for winter tires it's common knowledge that the rubber mix in the winter tires are of softer mix, so that they will have more traction (aka friction). This is why if you run the un-studded winter tires in summer they won't last as long as summer tires ("been there done that" many times myself).

Now the flip side of this is that the studs themselves make for LESS traction on blacktop (non ice/snow conditions) this fact is even covered in "traffic school".

Something I just ran across recently (having a soft spot for the idea of a TDI Porsche TDI idea ), and having already purchased LRR tires for my Mk3 Golf TDI is this: (starting at around 0:50min)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA5XMeijqlI

[Vekke]

- Winter tires are softer that is a fact
- They will also melt on hot summer days when temperature is over +15 celsius quite easily
- They will have lower rolling resistance factor that is also a fact. That softer rubber has better grip on icy roads but that does not mean that they dont roll good on summer or winter. For summer the braking distances become too long because they dont have enough grip a hard tarmac.

That my video was a Nokian tires own made and they say that Hakkapeliitta R is best tire at the moment. That is also what they recommend to all projects who try to minimize their fuel consumtion.

Reason why they dont work on my lupo 3l as good as summer tires 145/80R14
- They are 30 mm wider
- ET on the rims are different, they come too much outside from the wheel well --> effect aero
- Wheels are over 2 kg heavier. i believe the tires are also little bit heavier

+ They are about 3% taller which is the reason why I wanted that size first but that was not enough to cover those negative effects.


On the video G2tdi posted that guy says that they have seen best tires for that car be narrow 135/80 or 85R15 like used on citroen 2cv etc. They can be good and I also tested them on my lupo. My rims on those tires were again such that the wheels com etoo much outside from the wheel wells...

[G2TDI]

Originally Posted by Vekke

- Winter tires are softer that is a fact
- They will also melt on hot summer days when temperature is over +15 celsius quite easily

Heh I don't know what winter tires you've been using, but I would for the past years I was still living in your country and the neighboring one only buy brand new tires once per year, and that would be for the winter season, and when the summer season came along I would just PULL the studs out. Temperatures would be up to the occasional +30c, there's no problem using winter tires in the summer from that aspect. Though yes they ten to be soft, as they should but never have any "melt"

Originally Posted by Vekke

- They will have lower rolling resistance factor that is also a fact.

Lower traction = lower rolling resistance = due to METAL STUDS between the rubber and the road.

Originally Posted by Vekke

That softer rubber has better grip on icy roads but that does not mean that they dont roll good on summer or winter.

Naturally it does! This is simple physics. The softer rubber mix has the exact same effect as with tires that have too low air pressure, and harder rubber has the same effect as tires with too high pressure. Hence why some ecomodders do this (put more air than the specs state to have).

You can't get more traction (on ice and snow) without having more friction, this is one and the same thing!

Just like WIDER TIRES have MORE TRACTION and higher rolling resistance.

Exactly why people who race cars and motorcycles make their tires softer by making them hot to get better traction!

Originally Posted by Vekke

For summer the braking distances become too long because they dont have enough grip a hard tarmac.

Yes but this does NOT have to do with the rubber, but with the metal studs in them! Remove the studs and they braking distance is BETTER than summer tires!

Originally Posted by Vekke

That my video was a Nokian tires own made and they say that Hakkapeliitta R is best tire at the moment. That is also what they recommend to all projects who try to minimize their fuel consumtion.

Well as I already stated the only logical explanation to this is that it has to do with the studs in them!

Originally Posted by Vekke

Reason why they dont work on my lupo 3l as good as summer tires 145/80R14
- They are 30 mm wider
- ET on the rims are different, they come too much outside from the wheel well --> effect aero
- Wheels are over 2 kg heavier. i believe the tires are also little bit heavier

+ They are about 3% taller which is the reason why I wanted that size first but that was not enough to cover those negative effects.

Yeah I ran into the same issue with my Miata rims I couldn't really go any less wide than 175 due to the wheel widths. Though I am pretty sure from everything I've studied that a heavier setup but very narrow should be better than lighter wheels but wider, but again this is theory I have yet to test it in practice!

Originally Posted by Vekke

On the video G2tdi posted that guy says that they have seen best tires for that car be narrow 135/80 or 85R15 like used on citroen 2cv etc. They can be good and I also tested them on my lupo. My rims on those tires were again such that the wheels com etoo much outside from the wheel wells...

Have you ever experimented with those "temporary" spare tires found in some VW trunks? I have four of them....

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by G2TDI

Have you ever experimented with those "temporary" spare tires found in some VW trunks? I have four of them....

Is that wise ? The space saver spare in our old Volvo said never go over 50 MPH with them, and the handbook suggested always fitting them to the front.

[Vekke]

Hakkapeliitta R does not have any spikes on them. That compound is even softer than the ones used in winter tires that have spikes like hakkapeliitta 4,5,7 etc. So if you remove the spikes from winter tires those might hold the summer heat in one place. SPiked winter tires need little bit harder compound so the spikes wont fall off and twist into bad position under acceleration and braking.

Hakkapeliitta R tires will melt under the car quite fast if you drive them on the motorway +120 km/h at +25 celsius temperatures. By melting I mean the same thing that happens as does the regular tires on the track they gather some rubber chunks at the edges of the tires and wear off very fast.


Braking distances on studded winter tires on dry tarmac is over 10 meters and with studdless winter tires over 15 meters longer. Warmer the weather or it rains bigger the difference. Best summer tires stop 100km/h(62mph)-0 under 36 meters. Its quite hard crash if you need to stop at 36 meters with winter tires on...

Wider tires (175-225 range give also better rolling resistance than the narrow tires, but the rolling resistance force might be smaller in narrower tires + they have better aerodynamics.

I suggest everyone would read these pages first if they want to know more about rolling resistance:
Barry's Tire Tech
Barry's Tire Tech

[Vekke]

I havent tested spare tires myself but metrompg did test and they rolled much worse than his regular tires.

[lowglider]

Hey Vekke, can I ask you about the other aspects of the Lupo 3l? How have you been pleased with the overall build quality and mechanicals? Is the ride quality comfortable enough for longer trips or too harsh? Being a small car, how noisy and stable is it at higher speeds?

One Lupo 3l converted to manual transmission is for sale nearby and it˙s hard to put it out of my mind.

[Vekke]

Originally Posted by lowglider

Hey Vekke, can I ask you about the other aspects of the Lupo 3l? How have you been pleased with the overall build quality and mechanicals? Is the ride quality comfortable enough for longer trips or too harsh? Being a small car, how noisy and stable is it at higher speeds?

One Lupo 3l converted to manual transmission is for sale nearby and it˙s hard to put it out of my mind.

Best car I have ever driven. I have little problems on my lupo 3l with the gearbox hydraulic pump system. So if it is already manual its suberb. Then you just have to do the neutral shifting yourself but IMO that is not a problem. When you have converted the 3L to manual you can drive over 400000 km without problems on the engine or gearbox.

- Build quality very high in my mind.
- Car is as noisy as executive class cars in the range of 40000€. So its very pleasant in longer highway cruises.
- Car is stable even at max speed which is 165 km/h. You can partically drive without hands/one finger.
- When pushed on gravel roads car is tail happy but in normal driving it understeers if you go too fast to corners.

When you buy Lupo 3L you should check for the following faults:

This week 49 I evaluated 7 Lupo 3L in German car dealer and only one was in that good condition that I could buy it for my customer. So check the car for following faults:
- Engine oil leaks in front of the engine and in backside (3 cars). Little oil leaks are ok but if the whole engine is covered in oil avoid.
- hydraulic transmission system. Oil level and the functioning of it. If the car is working it should not only take no more than 15 seconds to be able to start the engine. When you start the engine and put it to E and release brake pedal car should start to move forward at least when you apply little gas. If the fill cap is loose they have added oil (2 car). It should be very tight to open with your hands and might need toolt to open. Car which I bought I was not able to get open with my hands. Car should also keep the pressure up when you turn the engine down. After about one hour from stop this current lupo starts hers engine right away! So no waiting is needed if the system is in mint condition. My own lupo needs usually about 15 seconds almost every time even after small stop.
- Rear truck lid. If the brake light is on the lid car is crash repaired with cheaper parts. Ask the dealer about the crash. Light should be inside behind the glass (3 cars)
- Check the underside of the car for crash data or possible oil leaks near the engine (2 cars)
- How the engine sounds when you rev it at standstill. You need to test few to get the feeling but some run like a dream. Working engine should not make any weird noises. Also the gas fumes should not be dark, head gasket leak etc 1 car)
- Check the service history. You can feel and tell if the car has been carried out or not.
On test drive test the brakes. Weird strong noises from the rear brakes (1 car)
- Make some s driving on the road to find if some wheel bearings are worn. This is pretty sheap to replace but again cost few hundred euros (1 car)
- Test the glide in neutral system
- test the start stop system (2 cars)
- Is all the power still there, does it pull in low and high revs
- Test button to zero your fuel consumption gauge button
- Test the ECO button
- Drive some bumpy roads to test the suspension and wishbones (1 car)
- Test all gears with auto and with manual mode, any weird noises and its a no go.

If you are not experienced in enough I would advise to take it some car inspection place that can look the faults. OEM 3L parts are quite expensive but usually you can use basic lupo parts they are just heavier...

If you have VAG com last thing is to check the fault codes after the test drive.

Some of those faults are easy to fix but most are expensive repairs. So think twice if you are buying a cheap 3L model and check it properly.

When you got a nicely working 3L you cannot stop smiling while driving .

If you decide not to buy that Lupo 3L I am very much interested in that. Is it in germany?