What would you pay for a 100mpg Diesel electric Hybrid?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

#1. 100/130 mpg City/Highway Combined mpg = 115mpg
#2. 100mph Top Speed
#3. Fuel Capacity 12 gal diesel tank for 1,200 mi Range or better
#4. Electric only range = 30-40 mi
#5. 0-60mph = 12 sec
#6. Seats 2 side by side

More than $25000 wouldn't be so competitive.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by PressEnter[]

For the price of that Volvo you could almost buy 2 Volts :/

Yeah, and for the price of a conventional Volvo you could almost buy two Chevy Sonics, Ford Focus, etc. Some people are obviously willing to pay more than minimum price for new cars.

Come to that, I don't think Tesla is remaindering its stock of unsold Roadsters...

[ciderbarrel]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

Hey everyone,

I am curious as to what people would be willing to pay for a high mileage diesel electric hybrid?

I suppose some general specs need to be assumed first before one can make a good informed decision. So here goes some rough specs and feel free to add to them.

#1. 100/130 mpg City/Highway Combined mpg = 115mpg
#2. 100mph Top Speed
#3. Fuel Capacity 12 gal diesel tank for 1,200 mi Range or better
#4. Electric only range = 30-40 mi
#5. 0-60mph = 12 sec
#6. Seats 2 side by side


Based on this data I would most likely be willing to pay in the $25,000 - $28,000 USD range. While these are pretty ambitious specs the XL1 from VW shares some of them.

I think $25k is wayyy too much. Using math, I found the most I would pay.
If I was comparing it to a used 12K Prius that got 46 MPG average. The Prius would use 326.09 gallons over 15k miles, this hybrid would use 130.43.

Using my local gas station prices ($3.599 a gallon for regular, $4.078 a gallon for diesel), the Prius would use $665.02 less fuel a year at 15k miles a year.

The break even point vs the $12 Prius:
at $25,000, it would be 19.55 years
at $22,500, it would be 15.79 years
at $20,000, it would be 12.03 years
at $17,500, it would be 8.27 years
at $15,326, it would be 5 years.

$15,326 is what I would pay if I drove 15,000 miles a year, but I do not. I drive almost 6000 miles a year. At $13,331, it would take 5 years to break even at 6000 miles a year, so that is what I would pay, tops.

[GreenHornet]

Hey Ciderbarrel,

Based on your driving commute of less than 20miles a day you would be using only electric for most all days which would mean you would not be spending anything virtually on the diesel fuel. So the hypothetical numbers you ran would be even more in favor of the diesel vs Prius. If you combined the diesel with electric the fuel economy is like 225 mpg. The Prius does not even compare to this!

Consider what you spend on a new Prius that would be a better apples to apples comparison. Diesel fuel is more expensive but electricity is much less expensive than either gas or diesel and pollutes less in our cities. We can also produce our own electricity if we have the means.

The Prius depending on model can deliver around 11mi EV only mode. With a plug it could handle all of your daily miles. I like the Prius don't get me wrong and I see where you are going with it but savings at the pump is only one figure that you calculated and not really the best one for your personal driving habits and noted yearly mileage figures.

For a brand new quality hybrid that will give you 30-40 mi electric range and 100mpg diesel only fuel economy you would pay less than 15K essentially is what you are saying. I am not even sure there is a gas hybrid new with far worse fuel economy and EV only range for 15K USD I would be curious to see the cheapest hybrid here in the states and its ratings for comparison sake!

If anyone knows the cheapest hybrid bare bones model and specs here in the states post it up so we can see some comparisons here!

[ciderbarrel]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

Hey Ciderbarrel,

Based on your driving commute of less than 20miles a day you would be using only electric for most all days which would mean you would not be spending anything virtually on the diesel fuel. So the hypothetical numbers you ran would be even more in favor of the diesel vs Prius. If you combined the diesel with electric the fuel economy is like 225 mpg. The Prius does not even compare to this!

Ohh, in that case lets throw some new numbers at it as a best case scenario. Assume never out of EV mode, but they Prius still gets 46 MPG. The Prius is still using $469.34 a year in fuel vs 0 diesel costs at 6000 miles a year.

Also, looking back, a 5 year pay back may be too unreasonable, so I look at a 7.5 year pay back to 10 year pay back as a good price range. Most people in my family will keep their cars for well over a decade. Hell, I kept my Saturn Ion for 10 years (Bought in Jan 03) before getting rid of it last summer.

at $25,000, it would be 27.69 years
at $22,500, it would be 22.37 years
at $20,000, it would be 17.04 years
at $17,500, it would be 11.71 years
at $16,695, it would be 10 years
at $15,521, it would be 7.5 years

So, for ME, a range of $15,521 - $16,695, or around $16,000 is a more realistic number.

But, the average person drives 15K miles a year, so...

Assume, best case, you make alot of short trips to stay in EV mode and you can get free plug-in charging at all parking lots, and you use very little diesel to get 225 MPG with 15K miles a year. The Prius uses $1,173.59 in fuel, and the Diesel only $259.93.

The break even point vs the $12 Prius:
at $25,000, it would be 14.23 years
at $22,500, it would be 11.49 years
at $21,137, it would be 10 years
at $20,000, it would be 8.76 years
at $18,853, it would be 7.5 years
at $17,500, it would be 6.02 years

$18,853 - $21,137 -- so $20,000-ish for a normal driver

[user removed]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

Ya no doubt I think its pretty crazy that its priced over 70K USD. The crazier thing is they will most likely sale them too

Which creates the USED and SALVAGE car markets, VERY shortly after the 70k car hits the market.

regards
Mech

[GreenHornet]

Ok guys did some digging on the cheapest hybrids currently in the US and what fuel economy they provide.

#1. 2013 Honda Insight $19,290 with destination fee 41/44 mpg city/hwy
#2. 2012 Toyota Prius C $19,745 53/46
#3. 2012 Honda CR-Z $20,485 35/39 CVT mpg
#4. 2013 Toyota Prius $24,960 51/48
#5. 2012 Honda Civic Hybrid $24,990 44/44

The rest you can check out at the source link = All Pages - The Ten Cheapest Hybrid Cars - Rumor Central

Now I have a better understanding of the US hybrid market for comparison sake.

[GreenHornet]

Hey Ciderbarrel,

From my experiences most people rarely keep there car more than 5 years these days here in the US. So you would most definitely be an exception! I also know that the vast majority of car manufacturers base there paybacks on a 12,000 mile per year driving average.

Based on these figures the majority of people are always upside down or in a negative equity position when they go to trade in for a new car. Which is how the car dealerships make a big portion of there money.

Based on your driving and figures it definitely makes more sense to go used instead of buying new. If you can get a used Prius for 12K then that makes a lot of sense for you and the majority of people. For people that don't put much miles on the car per year and keep there vehicles long term buying a new hybrid for around 16-17K would be just about right I think. The problem is the cheapest is over 19K which would turn you to the used market.

The sweat spot seems to be just under 19K for most people similar to your revised figures

[Miller88]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

The Urea injection systems used now a days on the larger diesel rigs are fairly maintenance free just change out the Urea every 5,000 miles or so and you are good similar to an oil change but much easier. All you have to do is just buy the Urea and open the cap and poor it in like windshield washer fluid. The GM cars are set up to come to a steady crawl if the Urea is not replenished So if you ignore the on board diagnostics the car will only go about 15mph LOL!

With a small displacement diesel and set up properly you may not even need the Urea injection or you could use a better solution inexpensive water/methanol injection. Water injection has been known for many years to help reduce particulates can't get much cheaper than this!

If you are driving in the urban areas you may not even have to run the diesel much if it is a plug in electric hybrid which most all manufacturers are moving to anyways.

You are correct on the 7 mi point! It takes time for any engine to warm up to operating temps and diesels like to run hard. So this is part of the reason performance will suffer. Most all vehicles today are lightly loaded so this further compounds the issue. A hybrid allows you to minimize this downfall. You can purposely downsize the diesel engine while the electric can be sized for the heavy starting and acceleration demands.

Mazda's Skyactiv-D engine is able to meet the requirements WITHOUT urea injection. They do it by using low compression.

[NachtRitter]

Originally Posted by GreenHornet

I suppose some general specs need to be assumed first before one can make a good informed decision. So here goes some rough specs and feel free to add to them.

#1. 100/130 mpg City/Highway Combined mpg = 115mpg
#2. 100mph Top Speed
#3. Fuel Capacity 12 gal diesel tank for 1,200 mi Range or better
#4. Electric only range = 30-40 mi
#5. 0-60mph = 12 sec
#6. Seats 2 side by side

The specs you list are pretty much on target for me. Definitely like the idea of a PHEV with an e-only range that will take care of most (if not all) of the local errand-running, plus the ICE which will allow me to take the long trips I typically take once or twice a month.

Only trouble is that I'm not a "new car buyer". Had the XL1 made it stateside, I would have been tempted but in the end I know I would not have bought it new... not at $50K+! Maybe used, but chances are that in the limited numbers they would have been available, the used price would not have come down by much.

If a car were to come out meeting the specs you mention at the price of ~$25,000, I'd probably wait & see how it does in the "real world", and if it does OK, then I might look into getting a used one.