Why doesn't the U.S. get good FE cars?

[trikkonceptz]

I think in the coming years, we will see a shift in attitude. I believe firmly that many people see Luxury SUV's as a status symbol, not as a need. And from here on out, you will see the family's use SUV's more than anyone as it should be, and those that want to have the status will hopefully lead the charge in alternative fuel vehicles in order to make them cool.

It is my understanding that ford is bringing the fiesta over to the US as early as next year, with 9 other euopean models coming this way in under three years.

Begining next year they are also scaling back engine sizes and indtroducing a new line of twin turbo 4 and 6 cyl engines to replace the less efficient 6 * 8 cyl models available now.

Ford is one of the few who has the product ready, they simply need to make infrastucture changes to shift from making trucks to econo cars. This type of shake up was necessary, I can't wait to see what the next couple of years brings us ..

[Big Dave]

If they have already demonstrated compliance with safety standards, why don't they at least import the gasser? If nobody buys them (ARE you kidding?) they can send them back to Europe.

Tier II so far has completely beaten the European diesel makers (as the environmental extremists intended). Without the $4,000 filter they simply cannot comply with the PM2.5 standard.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by slurp812

The automakers are not really to blame. They have tried to sell smaller efficient cars. up until recently, we weren't buying them.

Oh, come on! When have US automakers seriously tried to sell small, fuel-efficient cars? I don't mean just stamp out a few low-end econoboxes, or rebadging something from Korea, and parking them on dealer lots so they can say "small cars don't sell" (regardless of the fact that the Honda dealer next door seems to stay in business), but actually mounting an advertising campaign on the scale of what they used to sell the idea of the SUV. Never, that's when.

Well not many of us anyways. I am a minority on our street, our driveway only has 2 cars in it. No minivan, truck, or SUV.

Maybe things are different in your part of the country. Around here, there has always been a pretty sizable presence of smaller cars, especially Hondas and Subarus, while the '80s Toyota is probably the single most common pickup around.

[trikkonceptz]

Like all other businesses, there is no money in small cars. I work for a Ford Dealership and I see the margins everyday. There is less than $1000 profit in a focus that is sold at full sticker. With numbers like that or until that changes there will be no motivation to sell compacts.

Scion saw the same problems in the begining because they were are a no haggle pricing product whose profit margins are less than $1500 per vehicle. Dealerships currently cannot survive at those rates unless they sell 300-400 compact a month in some cities. So as usual, one side won't do anything because the other side won't.

[slurp812]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Oh, come on! When have US automakers seriously tried to sell small, fuel-efficient cars? I don't mean just stamp out a few low-end econoboxes, or rebadging something from Korea, and parking them on dealer lots so they can say "small cars don't sell" (regardless of the fact that the Honda dealer next door seems to stay in business), but actually mounting an advertising campaign on the scale of what they used to sell the idea of the SUV. Never, that's when.

Maybe things are different in your part of the country. Around here, there has always been a pretty sizable presence of smaller cars, especially Hondas and Subarus, while the '80s Toyota is probably the single most common pickup around.

Yes, I drove many of them over the years, and they sucked. Ford Pinto, Chevy Chevette, Chevy Vega, Ford Escort, Geo Prizim (Toyota). I now drive a Honda. I live in the burbs, I am surroundd by pickups, and SUV,s. If the US made a decent small car, I would buy it. The reason they dont, is because they dont know how. They can build BIG blocks, and **** made out of cast iron. been that way for decades. They need some real engineers in there. The best big SUV's are domestic. I agree they haven't really tried. If they go under, its not my fault I cant afford to drive one. R&D!!!

[Big Dave]

The Hondas and Toyotas ("Toymotors") contemporary with Vegas, Pintos, Gremlins, and Escorts sucked as much as the US cars.

On a separate note:
The California legislature just banned the sale of all diesel cars. That (an eighth of the total US market gone) will hardly encourage importation of Euro-diesels even if the do manage to comply with Tier II.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The Hondas and Toyotas ("Toymotors") contemporary with Vegas, Pintos, Gremlins, and Escorts sucked as much as the US cars.

I don't know about that, a stratified charge honda that didn't need a catalytic converter? in 1975?

CVCC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Bror Jace]

"The Hondas and Toyotas ("Toymotors") contemporary with Vegas, Pintos, Gremlins, and Escorts sucked as much as the US cars."

I can't agree with you there, Big Dave. The first American sub-compact cars were dreadful micro-clunkers while the Japanese brands (Toyotas, Subies and Datsuns, mostly) were comparitively well thought out and efficient. They were not the rock-solid machines they are today ... but they were better than the atrocious Vegas and Pintos.

And the Hondas and Toyotas that were contemporaries of Escorts, Tourismos Citations and Cavaliers WERE very good cars (we're talking 80s here).

That's how the Japanese brands got their start ... intelligently engineering small cars in the 60s and 70s. They weren't perfect, but they were not that bad ... and the companies learned a lot by making them and improving them over the years. And once they had that market segment covered they (slowly) went larger and more upscale with all the knowledge and experience they had gained.

The American companies went the other way. Large, V8-powered sedans (which were were rather clunky) worked well enough for the average motorist and certainly were durable if cared for ... but when you downsized everything to sub-compact size, it showed how rough and vague the engineering and craftsmanship really was.

American companies continued to make full scale barges in the 70s, lightened, tin-metal barges in the 80s and by the 90s they were just coming to the realization that the smaller cars were the future of the industry ... but all their profits were still in pick-ups and SUVs. That was fine when we had $1.25 per gallon gas ... but things are very different now.

I own GM stock and hope they turn it around ... but that's far from certain. They and their brothers are simply coming to the party VERY late.

[Big Dave]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The Hondas and Toyotas rusted out even faster than Pintos and Gremlins. I remember early Hondas with that incredibly complex carburetor, that could not be counted on to start at all in the winter. Even today, Honda and Toyota have planned obsolescence down to a science. Everything goes at once. When they wear out, there is no saving them. This isvery smart policy. Nobody ever remembers them as a hunk of junk, just as a seamless little appliance working perfectly until it died. US cars fail one part at a time and you can keep them going in a reduced state for quite a while, but you always remember that dying junker.

US carmaker did pretty give up on fuel efficient cars because they could not make money on low-cost cars. Their union labor, legacy costs, regulatory compliance costs, and litigation cost made their economy cars too expensive to compete so they didn't put any effort into them. Why put a lot of money in money-losers?

This is really off the topic, though. US safety regulations eventually force cars to be heavy and environmental regs preclude the very efficient diesel engine. With a substantial part of theUS market forclosed to diesels (California) and with Tier II making them inefficient and hideously expensive, fuel efficient cars will be the exclusive domain of the grassroots ecomodders.

If you can't eco-mod, you are stuck with a gas hog.

[instarx]

I bought a 1972 Datsun and 15 years later it was STILL a wonderful car until I got T-boned at an intersection. I nearly cried that the car was gone. Although the quality was nothing like today's cars, they were still far above the American cars of the time.

There is one unarguable fact that disproves your position that Japanese cars of that era were junk - so many people bought them. If they were so bad why did they sell so well? Why did their market share improve year after year?

The big three were dragged out of their complacent ways by Japanese competition that literally forced them to improve quality or die. There was no American car with 4-wheel independent suspensions when they were common on Japanese cars. If you are old enough to remember, don't you remember the Ford advertizing slogan of the 80's "Quality is Job 1"? Ford knew they had a huge quality problem compared to the Japanese and of course their first response was a PR campaign. Do you remember US car makers going to Japanese plants to look at their assembly techniques and their ASTONISHMENT when they learned that any line-worker in a Japanese plant could stop the line if he spotted a quality problem? Don't you remember how hood and door seams in American cars were 3/8ths inch wide (or more) and seldom even parallel? I remember the marble test where a marble rolled down a hood seam on an American car would drift onto the hood or fender because the parts were so misaligned.