Why doesn't the U.S. get good FE cars?

[slurp812]

Originally Posted by Bror Jace

We need $5-$6 per gallon gas ... for starters ... maybe that'll snap people out of their 21st Century trances.

It will probably take even more than that. Still, I am surrounded by SUV's when I leave for work. Its so hard to see around those behemoths. I overheard a guy that lives around here talking, and he said: "The dealer could hardly believe it when I told him I wanted the extended cab". Then someone else said, "why do you buy one of those little jap cars?" and and he said "$h!t!!" I just smiled...

[Bror Jace]

I love SUVs ... they're great to draft behind.

[Katana]

I'll give my opinion with sweeping generalizations about people included.

It's a psychological thing, Americans seem to associate bigger with better, also seems to be that small cars are seen as less masculine, for fags, dorks and hippies. I've also seen what the US makers have done to styling of the small cars, they've made them so bland and boring it's no wonder they don't capture the imagination when you go to a car dealership or see them on the street. Unless attitude and american car designers change i don't think they will ever catch the imagination enough to sell, the euro/jap cars will dominate that section of the market until they can.

Getting good FE cars won't be done till the fuel cost gets high enough that it's worth it and american diesel gets cleaner so euro/jap diesels can pass regs without redesigning the car.

If i look out into the car park for my building i can see (when it's full) a '99 Seat Leon, '97 Renault Clio, '94 Ford Fiesta, '00 Peugeot 206, '95 Ford Transit Diesel (sounds like a tank), '05 Renault Clio, '03 Renault Clio, '08 Ford Focus Zetec TDCi, '99 Fiat Punto, '98 Peugeot 106, '00 Honda Civic Type R, '97 Ford Escort, '94 Peugeot 106 and my '96 Citroen AX. No American cars there since the fords are euro ones.

Out of those the cars the ones considered wussy by British people would be the '97 clio and the '94 fiesta, the rest are neutral or masculine like the focus zetec and the civic type r. Seeing an american car on the road is a rare thing, and i mean a real american car not a rebadged daewoo or some other crap.

The trend for large people carriers and 4wd drives does exist here in england but it's generally for those with more money or those who have enough children/people or the country lifestyle to warrant the purchase of them.
Though the trend seems to be heading away from them now towards estate cars like Volvo, family saloons like the ford mondeo and 5 door family compacts like the ford focus. The cost of fuel has a lot to do with it, and as the cost has gone up people have had to change their attitudes as to what is now considered cool to drive, and it has shifted towards smaller funky designs with good mileage and diesels, since diesels are shedding their reputation as noisy tractors with the new quieter euro/jap engines. Large 4WD/SUV like BMW X5, Range Rover etc. are seen as vulgar and unnecessary unless you live in the countryside and need the 4WD system and the space for transporting.

Not sure how off topic I've gone there, i tend to brain dump when posting on forums.

[Big Dave]

I do not look for any relief from safety regs. There are people in the US that seriously don't think an armored HMMV is safe enough. So cars will not get lighter in the near future.

I do not look for relief from the ULSD diesel fuel requirements of 15 ppm. This in spite of the fact that the EPA reported to Congress in 2005 that air quality in the US is the best in living memory. So diesel fuel will continue to be 80 cents a gallon higher in price than gasoline.

I do not look for relief from the PM 2.5 requirements of Tier II Bin5. So the efficiency-robbing barrier filters are here to stay. Add on the CA diesel ban and the diesel car may be completely dead in the US. How good can gas engine efficiency get? Probably not a lot morethan what it is today.

So expecting more from manufacturers is simply not realistic.

[Concrete]

So expecting more from manufacturers is simply not realistic.

Big Dave,

I think your truck is a perfect example of what can be done realistically
I believe you have talked about -needing and using your truck like a truck - even with A/C
you have just put a priority on FE and have made a huge difference

Detroit will notice - it just happens slooowwwlllyy
note the latest round of trucks have huge rounded & lowered bumpers - that is not an accident
It still may be a brick - but at least now days it is a smooth-ish brick

perhaps we are being too pessimistic in this thread
while I would never say our FE progress has been good - there is progress
the artical that makes me smile is the pinto car and driver ecomod
$11 worth of mods plus new tires - Car and Driver improves MPG by 25%
That silly "economy" car/deathtrap was only getting a little more than 14 MPG highway!
my stock truck with an automatic gets rated 22 highway by the EPA (I get 30+ pure highway)
if you told a person in 74 that - they would lock you away
in fact they might have said:

expecting more from manufacturers is simply not realistic.

[Bror Jace]

Katana, having our steering wheels on the 'wrong' side of the road might also contribute to a lack of sales in Britain, at least. When I heard (from watching Topgear) that American cars heading for sales in the UK still have left hand drive, I felt thoroughly embarrassed.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Concrete

That silly "economy" car/deathtrap was only getting a little more than 14 MPG highway!

I see, a plea to the emotional centers of the brain. Anyway the pinto was not exceptionally unsafe and I can name plenty of people who owned one and thought the other end of the spectrum was equally "silly", whats your point? They were getting twice as good mileage as the other US offerings.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Katana

It's a psychological thing, Americans seem to associate bigger with better...

Once again, you're stereotyping people - both Americans and Europeans. Fact is, if you look at US car sales, only about a third are what you could call big. Plenty of Americans like medium to small: who do you think buys all those Japanese & Korean imports?

It works the other way around too. There are plenty of Europeans who think bigger is better. For example, a friend of mine worked in England for a large computer company, at a high enough management level that one of the perks was a company car. He wanted a typical small British car (lived in St. Albans, and had to go into London every week or so), but would they give him one? No, it had to be a large BMW, for "status".

PS: And at the time (mid-90s) Jeep Cherokees seemed to be a status car among a certain circle - I was surprised to see so many on the roads.

[Concrete]

I see, a plea to the emotional centers of the brain. Anyway the pinto was not exceptionally unsafe

sorry
I guess the pinto is too vulnerable to that comment
my family had one - I learned to drive a stick in it - it was an okay econo-box

all I meant was they were pretty poor cars by any of todays standards
those of us of a certain age remember the death toll tally they would take on each holiday weekend
just like Iraq death tolls in the news today...
"49 were kill on Kansas highways this Labor day weekend" yadda yadda
so you are right - they were all death traps back then - not just the Pintos

My comments were meant to touch on the basic premise of this thread
"why doesn't the US get good FE cars?"

Well maybe we are getting them
- but the progress has just been so slow we don't even notice it.

FE gets traded against every other vehicle need
when fuel is cheap - FE loses

but...
the guys getting 50-100+ MPG today, are doing it in basically modified stock cars
they are crash worthy - road worthy - full sized cars!
not exotic one seat tube chassis (glorified bikes) with experimental engines
these guys are making FE a priority and kicking Detroit's Butt

Ecomodding Rocks

[whitevette]

Originally Posted by azraelswrd

It's the width that bothers me the most.

I don't think people should drive cars too big for them to handle. If they can't see or know where the 4 corners of their vehicle are, they don't deserve to drive it.

Do people "deserve to drive"? Hmmm.... In a land where anyone with a birth certificate can get a driver's license ( & that's arguable) sheeple don't deserve anything...as long as they pay their taxes ( and the lawyers for PJC), they just take everything( including your right-of-way). Nothing irritates me more than a double-digit IQ driver driving a loaded dump truck right up my but*!