Why doesn't the U.S. get good FE cars?

[Concrete]

you are right

we can do it the european way
tax gas to $10 a gallon - then the Aptera will have a business case to the masses
but in the mean time the economy takes a nose dive for a few years while it absorbs the new price of energy
out of the frying pan into the fire

if gas does go below $3 a gallon - as you say - you can kiss the Aptera goodbye
it will be a novelty for the wealthy greens

back into the frying pan

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Concrete

if gas does go below $3 a gallon - as you say - you can kiss the Aptera goodbye
it will be a novelty for the wealthy greens

I don't see that. I bought my Insight in 2003, when gas was still under $2/gal: Gasoline prices bit $1.72 a gallon, near record high - Mar. 10, 2003 Saving money wasn't my primary motive: I just wanted what I thought (and still do) was a neat car.

Maybe it would be a novelty (as if it isn't now), but hardly limited to the wealthy. If ordinary middle-income people can afford to buy new Harleys, power boats, RVs, and so on, why shouldn't there be a market for vehicles like the Aptera?

[Concrete]

If ordinary middle-income people can afford to buy new Harleys, power boats, RVs, and so on, why shouldn't there be a market for vehicles like the Aptera?

fair enough

but there are a couple of differences - the main one being the parent

the insight was developed by one of the largest car companies on the planet just so they would not have trouble with the California market special requirements.
they could (and may have) produced them at a loss for years
the Aptera is a startup asking for capital - cheap oil could easily kill them

the Harley comment, gives me an idea
stamp Harley on the side of an Aptera and people would tolerate almost any price/mark up
but they would need more chrome... and they would have to be Loud!

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

The Aptera will get better and less expensive as production ramps up and batteries get better. The EEStor batteries will possibly double the range to ~240 miles and they could lower the price from $27,000 down to $24,000-25,000. If they can speed up production and find cost savings in other places, then we could buy it for even less. It cost just $1-2 to drive it 120 miles.

Even the more expensive Typ-1h (hybrid) at $30,000 would pay for itself in around 100,000 miles. If you have a solar PV panel, then driving the Aptera would be even less.

[Stone Axe]

As an American I'm OK with our government regulations around diesel automobiles. We have too much pollution already. We have just switched to a cleaner diesel fuel and it has cost us a fortune.

Hopefully this will pave the way for more fuel efficient European automobiles. I don't want them here until they can meet our emission standards.

America has historically had counterproductive safety and efficiency standards. Our safety standards cause our automobiles to be heavy and inefficient. When faced with a choice between safety and efficiency our legislature always lets efficiency standards slip in favor of safety.

I was at a symposium of automobile designers and one of them stated that the American 5mph impact with no damage standard "costs" 500 lbs and 20% fuel mileage. He stated that a 20% gain in fuel efficiency was well worth telling Americans to stop bumping in to things in parking lots!

It is not true that America requires 50 cars for crash testing of all cars. The most famous case of this is the Porsche 959. Porsche tried to qualify it as a 911. America said no and asked for one of them to crash test. Porsche only made 200 of them and decided it was not worth crash testing one since they could sell all of them outside of America. Two Microsoft VPs bought one 959 each and tried to sneak them in through Canada. America customs seized them and held on to them for several years. Finally one of the VPs decided to allow his 959 be used for crash testing in order for the other one to be allowed in the country. Plus there were a handful of 959s coming on to the used market so he could (afford to) replace it. It was a dark day when America crash tested that 959. It passed the test. His buddy was allowed to bring the other 959 in to America and now they are legally available here.

Here is a really classic American misunderstanding of automobile safety. We now have the Smart Car. It is typically met with skepticism and disdain. I tell people that actually it has one of the best 70mph impact survivability of any car and that I saw it crashed at 70 mph on Top Gear and the passenger compartment was barely deformed and the doors still worked. "I just feel a lot safer in my Ford Explorer if I were to get in an accident". Actually the Ford Explorer has the highest fatality rate of any automobile on American roads by a wide margin.

[Bror Jace]

"America has historically had counterproductive safety and efficiency standards. Our safety standards cause our automobiles to be heavy and inefficient. When faced with a choice between safety and efficiency our legislature always lets efficiency standards slip in favor of safety.

I was at a symposium of automobile designers and one of them stated that the American 5mph impact with no damage standard "costs" 500 lbs and 20% fuel mileage. He stated that a 20% gain in fuel efficiency was well worth telling Americans to stop bumping in to things in parking lots!"

That's interesting ... and a little amusing ... but it's even more complicated than that. As costs for fixing the slightest parking lot bumps goes up from $0 to hundreds of dollars ... we'll all be paying hundreds more per year in car insurance ... which would go a long way to wipe out the dollar value of those efficiencies.

But then again, I find the 500lbs/20% figures a bit hard to swallow on their face. We can make a very plain, but very aerodynamic front end with the same weight and strength as current cars ... but with gas $3 or less, the companies (foreign and domestic) figure Americans would prefer more distinctive-looking vehicles instead.

I think that's about to change.

[Concrete]

But then again, I find the 500lbs/20% figures a bit hard to swallow

yep that does not smell right
look at NASCAR - they are lighter and safer (a 70 mph for them is just a fender bender)
the penalties are cost and convenience not weight or safety

Agree on the 5 mph bump
example of 5mph bump trade off - the beloved CRX
great FE (even by todays standards)
just don't back it into a steel pole (like are in most business parking lots)
back in it's day insurance companies rated the CRX was the highest cost 5mph bump
(what is the carbon foot print of replacing hatchback glass - sorry I could not find pic of tests)

and the clean up of sulfur out of Desiel
Gas has the same propblem (both made from oil) and has to be cleaned up too
in fact a more savvy person than me, could probably show a link to the low sulfur regs for gasoline and an increase in prices

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Concrete

the Aptera is a startup asking for capital - cheap oil could easily kill them

I don't think so. Some people would buy it just for the "coolness" factor. Other people don't really care about the monetary price of gas, but do care about the environmental & geopolitical costs. It really goes back to where this thread started, with the myth that all Americans love big cars. In reality, there's a market out there for Aptera-like vehicles, and would be even if gas was free.

Even at the current price, they've got IIRC 3300 Californians to put down a deposit before production even begins. Extend that to the rest of the country, and you've got at least 30,000 customers. Then figure that for every one willing to put down a deposit, there are several who prefer to wait until it's in production, and you've got a minimum of 100K potential customers.

...stamp Harley on the side of an Aptera and people would tolerate almost any price/mark up
but they would need more chrome... and they would have to be Loud!

Unfortunately, that would mean I couldn't have one, since I think there must be a law that says you're not legally allowed to ride a Harley unless you've got a beer gut hanging over your belt :-)

[Concrete]

James,
Hope you are right - but still contend you will be more right if gas stays high

Took a little pre Obama poll last summer at work as the prices were going up
everyday it was ***** and moan - "it went up another 5 cents toady" yadda yadda
so after a while I just ask if any one had even checked their tire pressure for FE
(I don't mean over inflation - just to spec)
all I got were blank stares & silence
they were literally un-willing to lift a finger to improve the situation
so I suggested to them that gas prices apparently were not high enough yet

hate to let you in on this little secret
Ecommoders and Hyper-milers are not "normal"
but I am glad to be apart

[Bror Jace]

"so after a while I just asked if any one had even checked their tire pressure for FE (I don't mean over inflation - just to spec). All I got were blank stares & silence. They were literally un-willing to lift a finger to improve the situation so I suggested to them that gas prices apparently were not high enough yet."

I bet that went over well.

Trouble is, we are too rich in this country ... and have become too complacent, too soft.

I look at all the empty bottles, even the ones with a $0.05 - $0.10 deposit ... laying by the side of the road and have come to the conclusion that we are too rich. Why else would you litter instead of returning your containers?

My solution? Is to nag people more ... tell them to fill up their tires, remove their roof racks, etc ... and also insinuate that gas isn't high enough yet.

My Uncle has a Hyundai Tucson ... this not-so-cute 'ute only gets 23mpg. I told him to lose the roof rack (never used) and fill his tires to within 2psi of the sidewall maximums and I told him he'd pick up 2mpg.

Like you, I got back a vacant stare.

We need $5-$6 per gallon gas ... for starters ... maybe that'll snap people out of their 21st Century trances.