Why don't vehicles have aerofoils to partially take the weight of the car?

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by j-c-c

Interesting, I had the "idea" that the protagonist here is out to lunch on his double down stance on "ideas alone are worthless", and you present a list of "ideas alone" that actually evolved into rather remarkable accomplishments, and our protagonist sticks to his guns poo pooing ideas.

Makes you wonder why he even explores his own ideas to decide if they are even worthy, ie catch 22.

It appears the "worthiness" factor on ideas may really center on whether they are his or not, but that's just a idea I have.

In fact I was thinking about this and you're either deliberately, and constantly, re-writing what I said, or you honestly don't understand.

I said that ideas alone (that is, without evidence they work) are worthless. Of course that applies to my own ideas, as it applies anyone's ideas.

So I have an idea. Obviously, it is worthless until there is evidence for its veracity. (Like, that's as obvious - to me at least - as the idea the sun comes up in the morning.) Lots of my ideas amount to nothing, ipso facto they are worthless. In fact, most of my ideas amount to nothing, I would think.

I have an idea, and then I immediately think: what evidence exists to support that idea? I might then do some research, or testing, only to find - nope, no evidence supports that idea, so that idea is worthless. Hmm, damn. Maybe I can now change the idea? Then I might try to find evidence for the new idea, but no, again there isn't any. So another worthless idea. And so it goes on, sometimes for many (10? 15?) iterations until I find an idea that works - finally, an idea with value.

Here's a concrete example, I had an idea of how I could 3-dimensionally shape the ABS spoiler I made for the back of my Insight. My idea was to make a mould and then heat the plastic, using the mould to squish the plastic into shape. I spent ages making a huge wooden mould, only to find I couldn't get even heat through such a big area of ABS. My idea didn't work - it was valueless.

I then had a quite different idea of how to shape the plastic - to use a bead roller with the plastic cold. It worked. That idea had - and has - value, because there is evidence it works.

I could sit here and come up with maybe 10 ideas of how to shape an ABS plastic spoiler. Until they're proven in the real world, they are all valueless.

To think that people would try to claim value in ideas that don't amount to anything is to me quite bizarre - it must be that they are absolutely bereft of any ideas that do in fact amount to something.

And a footnote. Of course people on web discussion groups just love coming up with ideas for which there is no evidence. It's one of the enduring characteristics of this sort of discussion group. After all, it's ridiculously easy to to come up with ideas, rather than come with ideas for which there is evidence. But I must admit I kinda figured that most people thought it was just a game, and they knew that reality is quite different. But maybe not?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

That's just like my saying to a professor of education - "Oh yes, I come from the same academic background as you," (because I have an undergraduate degree in education).

I honestly can't imagine any situation where I would even think that, let alone say it. Just mind-boggling ego and arrogance.



Er no, he didn't. Or at least, he didn't write it for people like you, based on what he told me.

If Aerohead writes it here, you can be fairly confident it is wrong in fact, implication or interpretation. Nearly every one of his posts - the exception is always surprising.

You just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole:
1) any comparison to a PhD in education to engineering belies your lack of any comprehension of mechanical engineering.
2) do you actually believe that undergraduate, graduate, doctoral, or post-doc study in fluid mechanics would include any variability in fundamentals that isn't introduced in FLUIDS 101 ?
3) so tell us what Hucho said. Your anecdotal rubbish doesn't cut it!
4) Either your a complete coward, hiding behind your computer screen and celebrity name-dropping, or you can put on the big-boy pants, act like a man, and tell us the actual dialogue you had.
5) at least I read his book. And comprehended it. For starters, I'm pretty certain that you've never read page 404, 405, and 407.
6) If you were here in the States, you'd already be behind bars. It's against United States law to write what you write. I'm continually amazed that your nasty --- hasn't been thrown off EcoModder for good.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

If I have an idea, and can I find no evidence for it, the idea was worthless. Pity, but there you are.

(In fact, you have made a great example. There is no evidence for the idea you had in that post, which indeed makes it worthless.)

(Aerohead's tortuous example was supposed to prove that the patent office in the US will patent ideas. But the patent office expressly states that they do not. Aerohead is, yet again, wrong.)

Seems like you've entered some contextual, intellectual cul de sac, typically the exclusive domain of cretins.
As always, you don't know what you don't know, and you make us all victims of your pedantry.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

In fact I was thinking about this and you're either deliberately, and constantly, re-writing what I said, or you honestly don't understand.

I said that ideas alone (that is, without evidence they work) are worthless. Of course that applies to my own ideas, as it applies anyone's ideas.

So I have an idea. Obviously, it is worthless until there is evidence for its veracity. (Like, that's as obvious - to me at least - as the idea the sun comes up in the morning.) Lots of my ideas amount to nothing, ipso facto they are worthless. In fact, most of my ideas amount to nothing, I would think.

I have an idea, and then I immediately think: what evidence exists to support that idea? I might then do some research, or testing, only to find - nope, no evidence supports that idea, so that idea is worthless. Hmm, damn. Maybe I can now change the idea? Then I might try to find evidence for the new idea, but no, again there isn't any. So another worthless idea. And so it goes on, sometimes for many (10? 15?) iterations until I find an idea that works - finally, an idea with value.

Here's a concrete example, I had an idea of how I could 3-dimensionally shape the ABS spoiler I made for the back of my Insight. My idea was to make a mould and then heat the plastic, using the mould to squish the plastic into shape. I spent ages making a huge wooden mould, only to find I couldn't get even heat through such a big area of ABS. My idea didn't work - it was valueless.

I then had a quite different idea of how to shape the plastic - to use a bead roller with the plastic cold. It worked. That idea had - and has - value, because there is evidence it works.

I could sit here and come up with maybe 10 ideas of how to shape an ABS plastic spoiler. Until they're proven in the real world, they are all valueless.

To think that people would try to claim value in ideas that don't amount to anything is to me quite bizarre - it must be that they are absolutely bereft of any ideas that do in fact amount to something.

And a footnote. Of course people on web discussion groups just love coming up with ideas for which there is no evidence. It's one of the enduring characteristics of this sort of discussion group. After all, it's ridiculously easy to to come up with ideas, rather than come with ideas for which there is evidence. But I must admit I kinda figured that most people thought it was just a game, and they knew that reality is quite different. But maybe not?

You were on the right track and got close.
MARINE PLASTICS, of Denton, Texas pre-conditioned sheet ABS, then heated it in an electric pizza oven ( if you will ) then quick-clamped it over a perforated, hollow wood pattern.
When the perimeter air-tight seal was made on the vacuum table, a valve was opened to a spherical vacuum reservoir, communicating vacuum thoughout the pattern, sucking the ABS down into complete contact with the wooden pattern.
Within a minute the plastic took a set, was de-clamped, and sent to a router trim jig for final shaping.
Commercial sign companies form clear acrylic in an identical fashion.
You were very close to success.

[freebeard]

JulianEdgar --I'm glad that you are getting good use out of the bead roller I recommended (That you already had on order?).

But I see you more as the antagonist than the protagonist, for purposes of this thread. But I'm willing to compromise on agonist.

Agonist | Definition of Agonist by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agonist
Agonist definition is - one that is engaged in a struggle. How to use agonist in a sentence.

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by aerohead

You were on the right track and got close.
MARINE PLASTICS, of Denton, Texas pre-conditioned sheet ABS, then heated it in an electric pizza oven ( if you will ) then quick-clamped it over a perforated, hollow wood pattern.
When the perimeter air-tight seal was made on the vacuum table, a valve was opened to a spherical vacuum reservoir, communicating vacuum thoughout the pattern, sucking the ABS down into complete contact with the wooden pattern.
Within a minute the plastic took a set, was de-clamped, and sent to a router trim jig for final shaping.
Commercial sign companies form clear acrylic in an identical fashion.
You were very close to success.

I am familiar with vacuum forming plastic.

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by aerohead

3) so tell us what Hucho said. Your anecdotal rubbish doesn't cut it!
4) Either your a complete coward, hiding behind your computer screen and celebrity name-dropping, or you can put on the big-boy pants, act like a man, and tell us the actual dialogue you had.

The background to the development of Hucho's book is in my latest book on the history of car aerodynamics. You should read it.

[JulianEdgar]

Originally Posted by aerohead

Seems like you've entered some contextual, intellectual cul de sac, typically the exclusive domain of cretins.
As always, you don't know what you don't know, and you make us all victims of your pedantry.

Translation: Aerohead was unambiguously and completely wrong but finds that impossible to accept. Why am I not surprised?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

The background to the development of Hucho's book is in my latest book on the history of car aerodynamics. You should read it.

which implies that I'll be buying it. So it's simple cowardice with a dash of avarice.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by JulianEdgar

Translation: Aerohead was unambiguously and completely wrong but finds that impossible to accept. Why am I not surprised?

If you can demonstrate complete wrongness, then hypothetically, we have a talking point. But I don't think you have it in you. Additional pretension.
The COMPLETOMETER was sent out for calibration, the battery is fully charged, and awaits your data.
This will be interesting.