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Old 09-07-2012, 12:20 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Canadian registration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
... will you guys ever make a guide on how you got the cars you have for sale road legal?...
The info I received - no guide is in the works so far.

As a first step, you would have to register your WIKISPEED car as a kit car in BC. The federal regulations are the same across Canada, but it appears that the provincial regulations differ.

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Old 09-07-2012, 07:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Thanks I will definitely look into this chassis and message for local members in the future when I have enough money saved.

On a side note I will never touch an electric car after reading the following web page which links to a New York Times article talking about someone who hired a professional to test EMF readings in their electric car and found the EMF levels high and unsafe.
peoplespharmacy.com/2008/04/28/health-hazards
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
someone who hired a professional to test EMF readings in their electric car and found the EMF levels high and unsafe.
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone did this.
I cant say I am surprized.
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:38 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Regulations in Canada - some more information - VERY LONG POST

Quote:
Originally Posted by thingstodo View Post
The car has a 5 star crash rating. I think the A pillars and windshield are fine for road legal. There are a number of prototypes on the road in the USA, licensed and insured. There are a few different rules in Canada, so it takes time to meet the requirements.

The suspension is actually quite impressive on the WIKISPEED car.

I think that the windshield is a stock item from a Miata - but I don't know which model or which year.
I sent an email to Saskatchewan Government Insurance (I'm in Saskatchewan) and asked what is required to register a kit car here. Here is part of their response. It sounds like it would be much easier to start with a donor car than with a kit car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGI
I see that the WIKISPEED has some crash test information but that they do not speak to the vehicle's ability to meet all the federal safety standards. All modern cars operated on public roads in Saskatchewan are required to meet the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (CMVSS) in effect at the time of manufacture. From the information provided on their website, it looks like the WIKISPEED would not be eligible for registration in Saskatchewan.

Our department is the one that deals with kit cars, most of which are 1930's to 1950's modified vintage cars. Below is some general information on custom types vehicle to help you understand what the requirements are.

HOMEBUILT VEHICLES

In order for a vehicle (manufactured after January 1, 1986) to be eligible for registration and for use on public roads in Saskatchewan it must meet the requirements of both The Vehicle Equipment Regulations, 1987 (http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/En...ns/V2-1R10.pdf) and Schedule IV of the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations - Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (CMVSS) - in effect at the time of manufacture.

SGI will not permit registration of a vehicle with a home built custom frame, fuel systems, steering components, brake systems, occupant protection and restraint systems unless the vehicle has been certified by the manufacturer (through Transport Canada) as CMVSS compliant and it has been subject and passed the physical testing required by the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations and its attendant Technical Standards Documents and Test Methods.

MODIFIED VEHICLES

SGI may permit the registration of a modified vehicle constructed upon a CMVSS rolling chassis, for example a fibreglass Kit Car body or dune buggy body installed on a full framed donor rolling chassis under certain conditions:

- The completed vehicle must be fully compliant with The Vehicle Equipment Regulations, 1987 (http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/En...ns/V2-1R10.pdf) and Schedule IV of the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations - Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (CMVSS) - in effect at the time of manufacture (http://www.tc.gc.ca/RoadSafety/Resou...ions/index.htm). Note: SGI will not permit registration of a vehicle with a home built custom frame, fuel systems, steering components, brake systems, occupant protection and/or restraint systems unless the vehicle has been certified by the manufacturer (through Transport Canada) as CMVSS compliant and it has been subject and passed the physical testing required by the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations and its attendant Technical Standards Documents and Test Methods.

- The vehicle's frame systems (only OEM or I-Car energy management and structural repairs are approved), occupant restraint and protection systems (i.e. seats, seatbelts, seat and seatbelt anchorage assemblies and airbags) and fuel systems (i.e. fuel tank and fuel tank placement) are unmodified and the rest of the vehicle meets the minimum safety standards. Any non-OEM approved modifications to CMVSS systems must be accompanied by testing and/or documentation describing the modification and certifying that the modifications have maintained compliance with CMVSS.

KIT CARS

With respect to "Kit Cars", Saskatchewan may permit the registration of a production kit car. Application for the registration of Kit Car is subject to SGI approval on a case-by-case basis. It is recommended that you contact Vehicle Standards & Inspection (VS&I) directly for more information prior to buying, importing or building any kit vehicle. Also, if you are planning on importing a kit car starter chassis, it is recommended that you reference Transport Canada's "Kit Car's in Canada" information on their website: http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp...00804/menu.htm.

PLEASE NOTE: SGI is unaware of any kit car manufacturer that produces a vehicle that is compliant with the Canadian Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. To the best of our knowledge, these types of vehicles have not been subjected to the fuel system integrity (CMVSS 301) or the occupant restraint (CMVSS 208) crash testing and vehicle components have not been tested for compliance with the occupant protection (CMVSS 201) standards. There are kit car manufacturers that state that these types of vehicles are for off-road use only and are expressly sold for custom car-building and off-road or closed track racing use only. In the event of collision, this vehicle may not provide it occupants with the same level of protection as a certified production vehicle of the same vintage.
I'm going to read through all of this material a few times. Maybe I'll get some understanding of what is intended, and maybe there is some leeway or interpretation in some of these rules.
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Old 09-10-2012, 12:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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We have a plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamWIKISPEED View Post
The WIKISPEED car is a modular design
We have a plan for the Electric Motor Module, which is actually two plans.

There will be one module, with a transmission, a transaxle, and the drive shafts that extend to drive the wheels. That is the common portion.

For the AC version, a set of small batteries wired in series will provide approximately 240 VDC to a surplus AC drive, rated at 33A. The 5 HP AC motor will couple to the transmission with an aluminum coupler. The motor will be mounted on the transmission with an aluminum mounting plate. A motor support bracket will likely be fabricated from steel.

For the DC version, a smaller number of larger batteries are wired in series and will provide approximatley 60 VDC to a DC controller that is rated at least 300 amps, still to be procured. The DC motor, still to be procured, will couple to the transmission with the same aluminum coupler as is used with the AC motor. The motor will be mounted on the transmission plate used for the AC motor with a different bracket.

Several signals will be routed from the car to the module, regardless of whether it is a DC system or an AC system. These include:
- a Start and a Run ingition switch
- an accelerator analog voltage
- an emergency brake signal
- a brake pedal signal
- an enable signal

The Electric Motor Module will return several signals to the car:
- energy remaining in the battery pack in a 'gas gauge' signal
- running signal from the electric motor
- a tachometer signal
- a speedometer signal
- a pack voltage indication scaled to drive the dash battery gauge
- an ammeter signal - not sure how that signal will be transmitted or what gauge it will be displayed on

That is the beginning of the plan. It will be revised as things progress.
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:13 AM   #16 (permalink)
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A DC donor

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamWIKISPEED View Post
We have a plan for the Electric Motor Module, which is actually two plans.
A DC donor car has been procured. It includes:
- 120VDC 21 HP Dc motor (7 inch diameter)
- Electric throttle pedal with mounts
- Kelly KDZ 12400 144V, 400A controller with USB interface
- 4 deep cycle lead-acid batteries
- fuse
- contactor
- cabling

A 5 speed manual transmission with motor coupler and motor mount looks good, but needs some work on alignment.

The car needs a lot of body work to get back on the road ... but likely has issues with frame rust as well. Some other parts can be used - brakes, wheels and axles, perhaps some of the suspension and lighting.

All in all, a good donor
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:22 AM   #17 (permalink)
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A short update

The Electric Motor Module is still only a wooden mockup, but the measurements are right.

A couple of small decisions:
- the DC version will start with 5 batteries, the largest of the deep cycle cells that weigh about 70 lbs each
- the batteries will be bolted to a ladder frame, and the frame will be bolted into the motor module
- the batteries are one level high, taking up only 10 inches of the 18 inches of available height
- the DC controller, the battery charger, and a junction box containing the fuses, contactor, shunt and a disconnect will be mounted above the motor and transmission. This will take up the room above the motor and transmission and make the controller, junction box, and charger accessible while the module is in the car.
- the controller, charger and junction box are mounted on a ladder frame, which is bolted to the motor module as a separate sub-module

- the AC version will start with 8 sets of 5 batteries each. These are recycled surplus 7 A-h UPS batteries (gel-cells). They will be connected in 4 series, 2 parallel (20 cells in series, 2 strings in parallel)
- the battery packs are stacked 2 wide, 2 deep and connect to a central rack that uses the connectors built into the cases
- the AC controller, the battery charger, and the junction box described above will be mounted above the motor and transmission.
- the controller, charger and junction box are mounted on a ladder frame, which is bolted to the motor module as a separate sub-module
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:31 PM   #18 (permalink)
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A revision to the scope

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamWIKISPEED View Post
A couple of small decisions:
- the DC version will start with 5 batteries, the largest of the deep cycle cells that weigh about 70 lbs each
- the batteries will be bolted to a ladder frame, and the frame will be bolted into the motor module
- the batteries are one level high, taking up only 10 inches of the 18 inches of available height
- the DC controller, the battery charger, and a junction box containing the fuses, contactor, shunt and a disconnect will be mounted above the motor and transmission. This will take up the room above the motor and transmission and make the controller, junction box, and charger accessible while the module is in the car.
- the controller, charger and junction box are mounted on a ladder frame, which is bolted to the motor module as a separate sub-module

- the AC version will start with 8 sets of 5 batteries each. These are recycled surplus 7 A-h UPS batteries (gel-cells). They will be connected in 4 series, 2 parallel (20 cells in series, 2 strings in parallel)
- the battery packs are stacked 2 wide, 2 deep and connect to a central rack that uses the connectors built into the cases
- the AC controller, the battery charger, and the junction box described above will be mounted above the motor and transmission.
- the controller, charger and junction box are mounted on a ladder frame, which is bolted to the motor module as a separate sub-module
There has been very little progress in the past few weeks. This scope change is an attempt to get around some of the blocks.

A couple of iterations have been done on the preliminary design. It
should allow for more modular changes. I tried putting the excel
'sketch' inline and it does not show well so it is attached.

The sketch shows a top view, an end view and a side view of the
module. The end view shows the back of the module as it sits in the
car. Batteries take up the 'front' half - this is a change from above.
The motor and transmission
take up the 'back' half on the bottom. Above the motor and
transmission are the Charger, Big Junction Box, and Controller (Left
to Right). My labeling is OK once you know where things are. No
interfaces are shown (mechanical linkages, physical wiring, etc)

Based on this modular design, the Battery Charger, the Battery Packs,
the Electric Motor and the Motor controller are all supplied by the
builder of the car - the user. The unit that ties all of these parts
together and makes it into an Electric Motor Module is a Big Junction
Box, or BJB. This is where present design time is being spent.

The idea is that each of these parts - motor, battery pack, charger -
is connected to the BJB in the middle. All wires go through the BJB.
That's the basis of the modularity - each component has only 1
interface to deal with so it can be iterated or replaced with a
functional equivalent with no changes to the rest of the design. To
do that, the interface between each component and the junction box
needs to be detailed. Some room will be reserved for optional
interfaces to be added (the junction box will not be full) - like an
analog brake signal for regenerative braking, not required but there
will be terminal blocks and pins reserved in the connectors.

The BJB contains an assortment of electrical parts that tie the
components together. This includes contactors, fuses, test points,
terminal blocks, switches, a shunt, and a lot of insulated covers.
More details will be posted as they are worked out, including a connector
to the 'rest' of the car.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf WIKISPEED Electric Motor Module.pdf (19.2 KB, 61 views)
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Interface between components

The Big Junction Box has started out as a roughly square piece of plywood. About 25 inches by 23 inches. Lots of room to mount parts, terminals, clamps.

This is the first cut at a list of signals into and out of each of the components. This is the interface.

This list is intended to be the minimum, just the basics. Options can be added later.

I'm not sure if the 12V accessory battery should be part of the 'car' or part of the 'Electric Engine Module'. Start with the accessory as part of the 'car'.

Terminal numbers are arbitrary, beginning at A01. They are just labels. The list is terminal number, then description

Car interface to BJB
A01 Key Switch Run, 12V = run position. Use as switched power.
A02 Enable Switch, 12V = OK to run (ebrake off, slap switch OK)
A03 Throttle Position, 0 - 5V
A04 12V, Power, non-switched
A05 0 V, Ground

Car Interface from BJB
B01 None

Controller from BJB
C01 Key Switch Run
C02 Enable Switch
C03 Throttle Position
C04 12V
C05 0V, Ground
C06 Charger connected, 12V = disable controller

Controller to BJB
D01 Main Contactor, 12V = turn on DC battery bank
D02 Precharge bypass, 12V = precharge is complete, bypass the precharge resistor

Charger from BJB
E01 120VAC
E02 Neutral
E03 Ground
E04 12V
E05 0V, Ground

Charger to BJB
F01 DC+
F02 DC-
F03 Charger Connected, 12V = Car plugged into a power source

Battery Pack To/From BJB
G01 DC+
G02 DC-

Battery Pack from BJB
H01 None

Motor From BJB
I01 DC+
I02 DC-

Last edited by thingstodo; 10-11-2012 at 10:43 PM.. Reason: Missed a big detail - the MOTOR!
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:24 AM   #20 (permalink)
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First off, I would like to say that I love what the wikispeed project is doing. I think there is a lot of potential there, and would love to get directly involved, specifically with designing an electric drive module (email sent last week ). I found out about Wikispeed recently from someone I met at a convention, and while as far as I can tell from publicly available information, I get the feeling it's not quite as far along as the promo videos seem to suggest, like I said, I think there is a lot of potential there, and I am excited to see what it can grow into.

I figured I would open with that, since I know a lot of what I am about to say is very critical and may rub someone the wrong way. That being said, if I am reading anything that was said incorrectly or incompletely, I am always happy to be proven wrong. To paraphrase a wise saying, when we fail/are proven wrong; that is when we learn.


Having not heard back from the team yet (only sent the email on the 10th, so I'm not complaining, just keeping the brain working ), I figured I would search and see if I could find anything on the 'two different electric drive module designs' that were mentioned in a few of the wikispeed videos...thus, how I found this thread.

Reading through this thread, frankly, I was a bit disappointed. I completely understand the budget problems, but for a few different reasons, I think what seems to be the current approach is flawed. But some of that may be the idealist in me.

First and foremost, there is a question you have to ask yourself. 'Am I designing this as a product or am I just trying to minimize costs?' Assuming that this is following the same line as the rest of the wikispeed project, I am going to say that this is intended as a product. Not now, but at some point down the road. I understand the budget concerns, I really do...but when the ICE module was being developed, did they just wander down to the local scrap yard and say "Oh, hey, look, that's an ICE. It's a 5HP 70cc dirt bike, but that'll work."? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing they found a commonly available, reasonably priced, appropriately powered, ICE engine, that they could purchase new, reliably and repeatably. That being said, scavenged parts are fine for prototyping, but in designing the module you must always keep in mind that the parts that will go into the end product will be very different than what you are using now..which ties into another point, but I'll go into that later. I would hate to see the result of this be a module that makes the car behave like an overgrown golf cart...if it is to succeed, IMO, you need to match or exceed what the ICE module is doing....which is not as hard as you might think.

And that leads me to my other initial point.

I understand the reason for the $5,000 price point. I really do. You want to match the cost of the ICE module. But that is not realistic just yet...not if you want something reproducible that will actually behave like a car. Final price will really depend on what range you want to achieve...but there will be a certain, minimum, possible, price....and it will be a good bit above $5,000. Double that, and you might be able to make it. For example, an AC-50 with a 7602 and 38 CALB CA-60's, charger, and associated contactors/fuses/etc, would give you a nice, peppy, little, roadster. Wouldn't give you the same performance as the 130HP ICE, but it would still act like a car. You might be able to do that module for less than $10,000, and it would probably only give you about a 40-50 mile range. ..also, run the numbers before assuming that cooling will take up too much room...if you're used to lead batteries, it may shock you how small even the large-format LiFe batteries are (check out the chart in my sig for figures). Looking at your layout diagram, it looks like you're dedicating a full 1/2 of the module to batteries. You should be able to fit a good 30kWh in that space...enough storage to give the car probably about a 200-300 mile range (I'm guessing ~100-150Wh/mi, based on the mpg numbers). Granted, that would also be quite expensive, and larger than (imo) necessary, but it also means that with a smaller pack you would have a lot more space for other things.


Ok, for more specific points.


Regarding where to put the 12V aux battery, that should be determined by the rest of the vehicle design. If it is in the ICE engine module, it should be in the electric drive module. If it is not in the ICE module, it should not be in the electric drive module. If it is external, you will want to have a DC-DC converter in the electric drive module, with leads feeding out of the module, that will connect to the external 12V aux battery. If the aux battery is external, I would assume there are already such hookups for feeding off the alternator on the ICE module.


The last thing that jumped out at me is the 'BJB'. I understand the idea behind it; you are trying to modularize the module itself, to make it agnostic to what controller/charger/etc you are using. This is admirable, but not, imo, practical at this point. Things are not yet sufficiently standardized in the EV world that this could be made to actually work well. For example, some controllers will accept two switching signals (ie, key/enable), some only accept one. Some accept a charger disable, some do not (I would just tie this one into the throttle feed, personally). Some have built-in pre-charge, some do not. Some have built-in contactors, some do not. If you are feeding the motor control lines through the BJB, you need to keep in mind the possibility for differing numbers of lines (series-wound DC or PMDC == 2, 3-phase AC or PMAC/BLDC == 3, sep-ex DC == 4). If you choose to use a BMS, you will have to account for it and its communication with the various parts.

In my opinion, there is just too much variation between different component combinations at this time to make a BJB work. You could have everything from half a dozen different components, all needing to be interconnected, all the way to a single unit that handles everything, and any point on the spectrum in-between. As such, I would stop the universalization at the parent module level, and create a separate design for each electric drive module component combination. There can be some shared sub-modules, but everything will not be shared. For example, you could have battery modules of different capacities that are constant across all electric drive modules, and you could have the control components (controller, charger, etc) in one sub-module that is the same size/construction for all electric drive modules, but I think that level of universal modularization is as far as it is logical to go at this point in the industry.


Lastly, I would encourage you to post this design log on other forums as well. EV's just aren't the primary focus of this site, so there won't be as much EV expertise as somewhere that does focus on them. My 2 cents, post it on as many relevant boards as you care to pay attention to; tap as wide a knowledge base as possible. diyelectriccar.com is a good one. I've heard good things about EVDL.org. elmoto.net is focused on motorcycles, but a large amount of knowledge overlaps.

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