Will Tensions in Iran Send Oil Prices Through the Roof?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Christ

I'm well aware of the shortage of jobs in this country. I've been out of work since November of last year, collecting unemployment the whole time. When that runs out, I go back to working (most likely) as a self-employed nut, paying taxes on money that doesn't get reported, because I'm a "good" citizen (read as: I'm a "good" SS number...)

I'm all for patriotism and supporting America, but at the same time, the world economy is more important than that of any one country, and while it may be less environmentally and morally responsible to buy cheaply built and priced products from China, I still do so when it's fiscally better for me.

There is the National Economy, but there's the Economy in my pocket, as well. If I don't have the money to buy the overpriced American crap, I don't have the money. When it comes down to American and starving or Chinese and Food on the table, I pick whatever lets me eat at the end of the day. Call me whatever you want, but that's just the way it is.

In the mean time, Americans are losing work because we refuse to buy over priced American products when often, their foreign counterparts are of similar or superior quality... then again, I've been a part of the American workforce for ~10 years... I've seen lots and lots of dissatisfied people who can't live within their means, insist that they're working too hard and being paid too little, yet they often are found slacking around until the bell for quittin' time rings. They don't appreciate the dollars they do earn, because they feel entitled to something more, for doing nothing.

The era of the "hard working American", sadly, is nearing it's end, IMO. There are too many lazy people who have this feeling of entitlement, and none of them will even do what's asked for what's offered. Go to China, Japan (not so much anymore, from what I'm told), and several countries who aren't as "well off" as America, and you'll find a completely different attitude. Those people appreciate the opportunity to make a living as best they can on what's offered, and they work damn hard for it, gladly, knowing that it means they can eat and live to work another day. They don't piss and moan about not receiving an undeserved merit raise, or sit and complain that they didn't get that last-minute vacation approval so they could go drinking on Friday instead of upholding their duties at work.

Cost of Labor is a major component of why companies are moving to China, but there are other factors involved as well, that people refuse to see/admit to. When's the last time you heard someone honestly say that they were just too lazy to go to work? That's a factor, though noone will ever tell you that. they'll make up some excuse about how they're sick, etc...

I've had several jobs where there WERE NO sick days. You had 5 vacation days a year for the first 2 years, use 'em up foolishly, and they're gone. Get sick and take off work after that, you're fired. That was one of the best companies I've ever worked for. The bosses commanded respect, and the workers actually worked. We were paid a fair salary for the amount of work that we had to do, and had full benefits, another luxury IMO.

On top of all that, employee wages aren't even the largest practical reason for businesses moving overseas. CEO's need new cars. Plain and simple. What's the best way to liquefy $1.5 million dollars from your business' capital? Hire cheaper labor, get rid of the more expensive guys. Then, go buy your over priced car that you won't drive anyway, because driving is just a burden when you have a Chauffeur, and the Chauffeur and you both won't fit in a Ferrari.

/informative rant

Is there anyway you might could get the addresses and/or phone number, email addresses of these companies that can not seem to be able to find workers in this country that has unemployment rates anywhere from 10% to 30% depending on if your averaging the country, state or county. Michigan still leads the pack, but I understand the people in Michigan are going to stop watching all movies made in Hollywood or California, after all California is not buying many cars from Michigan, so it makes sense to me.

Yes sir, we got thousands of males and females ready to work over here. Get those background and drug tests ready because plenty of us are ready to start. I guess it boils down to the jobs being located in one certain place, yet so many that can not find work have family obligations that make it very difficult to relocate for work. It would be bad if one moves 200 miles for a job and the next week grandma is dead because the new care person forgot to give her the meds on time. I am not joking while attempting to make a serious point.

We have some of the hardest working people in Kentucky, especially WESTERN Kentucky that are used to working as fast pace and pull and lift heavy things at temps over 110 degrees F- I know because I used to work with some of these guys in Glasgow Kentucky. We have the workers, and if the company will not try to either relocating all of these workers, or relocating the company, then I don't see a chance of hard working people driving a billion miles to work either.

We have the hard workers. We don't have the jobs. If the jobs for LEGAL Americans are really out there, then we need to spread the word and the ones that can and have the money to drive or fly a long distance, likely either for tests and.or interview(s) Im sure will do so. But most unemployed folks have a bit of a problem getting $400 to a grand together just to apply and take a companies test as the one job opening has over 50 people applying for it although you were led to believe only YOU were being considered for the job. Employers here rather hire illegal immigrants for $4.00 an hour and claim they have no openings. I wish our Government would bust the asses of the companies and people hiring illegal immigrants at ANY wage- very much not legal and it cost us American good paying jobs for people born right here. There is no job to good for me. I have cleaned toilets, washed/waxed floors, dug ditches, chopped down large weeds with "posinious"[<sp] plants in them, painted, trimmed bushes trees, mowed, tared trailer roofs, you name it it's not beneath me! I apply everyday at what ever lead I get in my attempts to network for a job, which so far has not worked once, it seems the managers here are hiring either their personal family and.or friends, OR they hire illegal immigrants for less money than is legal. It simply amazes me how much alike the managers are to thier closest and highest ranking employee is. Corruption in the work place is ram-pet in Kentucky. I could write a book on my personal experiences that are not legal. I have got to the point I will start calling the attorney general;s office when ever a business is big enough that they cant so easily pull such stuff- and, btw: this is a good example of where a union would help.

GM lowered their wages and now starts out production workers for $14 an hour, Right after that I read that Honda of America had lowered their production wage about a buck an hour!! Do you folks see where this is heading, do you connect the dots? It's a race to the bottom line, whomever gets to pay their employees $0.000 WINS! Then we can all PAY TO WORK! YIPPPIE! Neither Honda nor Toyota would of been paying the wages they did if it was not for the threat of the UIAW trying ti get in, But Kentucky is a right to get fired state, so even if a union gets voted in a scab can still cross the line and work, which removes most of the clout that a union has. In Michigan their work laws favor the unions, and I too feel that their high cost of labor on average is why Michigan is the worst state in this DEPRESSION! If it was not for all of the "fixed income" checks being sent out once a month, I think we all would be no better than in 1931. If you get a check it's easier to ignore this depression, but if your in the wrong part of the country you can go for over a year of searching with no hires! And I swear if anyone would of told me it was possible to look for work for a full year and not have a full time job, I WOULD of said they were too lazy to work. But not now!! I have seen it, it's happen to me. Most of the money I made was repairing computers on the side and doing ever outdoor odd job I could lock in. Now winter is setting in, and it does not normally snow enough here to shovel driveways for $$l I will have to try to push my computer repair skills on some people that might rather throw away their computer and go to China-mart to score a computer that has everything built on to one mother board and a power supply- It's a fact I learned on a previous tech job I have- Walmart is said to dictate to manufactures how to cut every corner they can to get to their target price. Walmart has such a huge market companies buckle and build products of less quality but the outside will appear the same as a Best By computer, although inside they are different beasts!

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Yeah, it sure is unfair of those Chinese to make stuff that American businesses never bothered with - or if they did make it, never bothered to sell the stuff to ordinary people at prices they could reasonably afford.

Look at tools, for example. These days you can go into Harbor Freight or one of the other tool companies, and find the a range of tools - everything from simple autobody dollies to lathes & welders - that 20 or 30 years ago you'd have to order from a specialty house, at many times the price. Or tractors: if you wanted a small tractor for the family farm, you had to keep the old Allis-Chalmers or Massey-Ferguson running with spit & baling wire, 'cause American companies were only interested in big stuff.

Sure tools makes my point well. We have a Home Depot here. They used to sell USA made Black and Deckers at a certain price, and now they have switched all of thier power tools to ones from China, yet they never lowered the price. Rumor has it by changing the tools stocked in their stores to one made in China and NOT lowering your customer;s price makes buho bucks for stores.

[Christ]

Jammer - I can see your point, but you, sir, are not the "norm".

When's the last time you went anywhere near a state assistance office? It's easier "work" to go through bureaucracy and paperwork for miles, than to actually get a job. As bad as government run programs are for helping people, there are thousands on those programs who are capable of working, yet choose not to.

I, too, am not above any work that is worth my time. I won't take a job that doesn't pay me in an overall sense to work there. At my current wage (unemployment), It wouldn't be profitable or reasonable for me to take a job at less than $12 per hour, or $14 per hour for the distance I'd have to travel for a job that would pay that much.

Later on, after my UC is exhausted, I'd be willing to take a job for $9 an hour, which is the norm around here. Of course at that point, I'd have no other income option, but at the same time, I can live on far less with a family to support than the average single person household is supposed to "need" to survive.

What I find amusing is that with all the people in the world who think that they need to make thousands of dollars a month to be able to survive, when presented with green alternatives that are cheaper and safer in most cases, they back away, claiming they can't afford it.

When facts come to facts, obesity is a problem for a country whose residents are lazy and overfed, not for a country whose residents work hard and are prosperous and happy without making more money than they could hope to spend.

America has an obesity problem - I.E. Lazy and Over Fed.

Remember, we are not the "norm" here. The fact that we're even having this discussion makes that obvious.

RE: The stores switching to parts made from/in China - of course they did. The tools aren't made here anymore, so there's no comparison to US-built tools. If your product's manufacturer moves, you don't control that. You could make it cheaper, but chances are, it's not any cheaper for HD to begin with, since the MFR moved their processes to China to save money for their own pockets. They could care less about the little guy.

Also - I never said there were jobs here, I said that part of the reason companies are moving is because of the labor/price equation. In China, they get more work for less pay, and employees who don't complain/cause problems over their own lack of willingness to work.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Sure tools makes my point well. We have a Home Depot here. They used to sell USA made Black and Deckers at a certain price, and now they have switched all of thier power tools to ones from China...

Well, there's my point: what did Black & Decker make, 20 years ago, that you could buy in your local hardware store? Drills, Skil saws, maybe a sander or router. If you wanted anything more complicated/specialized, you had to go to a specialist and pay big bucks.

Now there's a simple element of practicality here. For someone like me, with just a home shop, it's just not practical to go drop say $500 to $1000 on say a drill press that I might use a few times a year. But if someone makes one I can buy for $100, then I'll buy it. Even if it's not top professional quality, it'll serve my needs.

That's where the Chinese got their entry to the tool market: not "unfairly" competing with US companies, but by recognizing that there was a market that those companies weren't interested in serving.

It's really not that much different from US automakers, who've never been real interested in building small cars - it's not that they couldn't build them, but that they actively don't want to, so much so that when they're forced into building a small model, they deliberately sabotage its chances of success with low quality, poor performance, and so on. Which leaves me in a bind: if I want to do the "Buy American" thing, I'm stuck driving a car that I dislike.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Well, there's my point: what did Black & Decker make, 20 years ago, that you could buy in your local hardware store? Drills, Skil saws, maybe a sander or router. If you wanted anything more complicated/specialized, you had to go to a specialist and pay big bucks.

Now there's a simple element of practicality here. For someone like me, with just a home shop, it's just not practical to go drop say $500 to $1000 on say a drill press that I might use a few times a year. But if someone makes one I can buy for $100, then I'll buy it. Even if it's not top professional quality, it'll serve my needs.

That's where the Chinese got their entry to the tool market: not "unfairly" competing with US companies, but by recognizing that there was a market that those companies weren't interested in serving.

It's really not that much different from US automakers, who've never been real interested in building small cars - it's not that they couldn't build them, but that they actively don't want to, so much so that when they're forced into building a small model, they deliberately sabotage its chances of success with low quality, poor performance, and so on. Which leaves me in a bind: if I want to do the "Buy American" thing, I'm stuck driving a car that I dislike.

I compretery agree.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Unfortunately, Persia hasn't existed for close to 1400 years, since it was destroyed in the first wave of Islamic imperialism: Muslim conquest of Persia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Iran is no more Persia than Turkey is the Eastern Roman Empire.

From The World Almanac and David Yergin's "The Prize": Persia became "Iran" in 1935,under Shah Reza Khan's modernization program for Persia.Anglo-Persian Oil Co. became Anglo-Iranian Oil Co.( in 1954 Anglo changed it's name to British Petroleum ).--------- Afganistan was also "Persia" until 1857,when it was severed from the mother country by Britain.------------ In July and August of 1953,Iranian Prime Minister,Dr.Mohammed Mossadegh was thrown from power during" Operation Ajax",a joint CIA/MI6 venture led by Kermit Roosevelt.--------- Many Iranian emigres who live in the Denton,Texas area refer to their former homeland as Persia,rich in history and innovation,from which I borrow their phonetic alphabet and writing to create this post.

[user removed]

America walked away from WW2 as the economic superpower of the world. No other nation was even close. We had the bomb and we ran the show.

Nations devastated by their proximity to the conflict basically started from scratch.

When I was a kid in the 50s the only thing that came out of Japan was junk. Few here might remember a "Put Put Boat" A small toy that had a tiny boiler. You put a sliver of Sterno called Canned Heat (remember the band by that name) under the boiler and it sucked water into two small tubes and heated it to a boil and shot it out the same tubes. The force of the steam drove the boat forward.

Japanese products were all considered throw away toys until Honda brought his tiny motorcycles into the US in the late 50s. Attention to quality and a remarkably effective marketing policy, changed the perception of Japanese products.

The Arab oil embargo and the electronics industry, as well as the Japanese work ethic and smart management that worked hand in hand with labor, reversed the positions of only two decades earlier and our lack of pride in our workforce and dedication to products that understood the old adage "the customer is always right" became lost in the myriad levels of US corporate conflict.

Lawyers and accountants became the controlling forces in corporate hierarchies, while the simple worker was replaced by more and more of the smart machine that replaced manual labor. Make money, dont get sued, or thrown in jail.

Japanese workforces matured and their virtually non existent older generation (the ones killed in WW2) was replaced by a newer older generation. They shipped them overseas for retirement as the wages became more on par with US wages. Property values skyrocketed.

Now Japan and Germany face situations similar to the US. They lost the war, rose from the ashes, produced and economic miracle only to become affluent and economically lethargic.

Here comes China, Korea, Taiwan, and India, plus many other poor countries. Life expectancies are short so retirement security is a non issue. Labor is cheap because people are poor as dirt, and will work for wages no one in the affluent countries would tolerate.

It's happened before. Go back 2000 years and read about the decline of the Roman empire. China threw out the English right after the 20th century began, and massacred the heroin addicts to the tune of 20 million. They had plenty of people and could not afford to attempt rehabilitation.

Stalin and the Russians ground Hitler to dust with the blood of tens of millions of Russian lives. people who only a generation before had be peasants, little more than property like the serfs of feudal times in Europe.

We like to hate the big guns in the US, we make them out to be the pariahs of society.
If you were running a major corporation and you saw your product demand drop off due to foreign competition, what would you do?

Fall on your sword of nationalism, and loose your millions of shareholders retirement funds in an example of sheer stupidity, or do what you have to do to survive.

International economics is a fairly new phenomenon. We used to have no competition, now we can't compete. Like the old picture of the fat British merchant sitting next to the starving Chinese peasant before the Boxer rebellion, we have become irrelevant due to our disregard for the plight of others.

What do we do to fix the problem?

First, as Christ as explained we have to really look inside ourselves.

Personally I think it will be a miracle if we succeed. I can't think of a single example of a great civilization that imploded and recovered. Maybe I haven't thought about it enough.

Great civilizations of the past have inevitably suffered from their own success. The US is presently on a course to spend all of the accumulated wealth we have spent 400 years carefully building. It will either bankrupt us or make our money worthless, two roads to the same consequence.

The Arabs are depleting a finite reserve of oil. What do they do when it is gone?

What does the world do when cheap energy is gone, although we have learned that it's not as cheap as we once thought, if the potential environmental consequences actually are as serious as many think.

Our only chance is through innovation and focusing our economic energies on investments that provide us with real long term benefits. I fear the Democratic system of government is ill equipped to compete with other forms of govt that do not have to think short term until the next election, but can plan forward in a generational timeline and plan appropriately. These same governements have the distinct advantage of carefully examining our example and cherry pciking the good parts and eliminating the bad parts.

I understood this when I was 18, 40 years ago.

At age 50 I discovered a potential solution to a significant portion of the present problem, a device that offers significant improvement in many different forms of energy storage and application.

Like Casandra the priestess of Troy, no one will listen, the Great Wooden Horse is within the gates, I am screaming, "Beware of the Greeks bearing Gifts". My words are ignored in the drinking and celebration. The next day our world is gone.

The Aztec calendar predicts the end of the world as we know it on December 21, 2012.

Thats the day my first Social Security check is due.

I am actually glad to think I dont have too much longer to live on this planet. Watching a country that I truly love, and that my family has spent blood to build and protect, decline into the all too familiar abyss of a historical footnote is something I would rather not experience.

What will happen to oil prices if $%^&* starts a war with $%^&*.

It could be the best thing that ever happend to us, waking us up to the fact that we are the problem, and only we can effect a solution.

reagrds
Mech

[Frank Lee]

Ironic that Japan's transformation from junk producer to quality benchmark was due to the widespread adoption of... American mgmt philosophy!

[aerohead]

This one has been at the center of attention for me for over a decade now.It appears that to provide pensions,we must adopt the mantle of cannibalism,in effect,eating our own offspring in order to maintain the market growth which is the centerpiece of contemporary capitalist dogma.

[Frank Lee]

Did someone say magma???