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Old 10-04-2009, 10:18 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
Jammer -



I don't know if it is in the tips, but there was a book in the 1950's on high MPG driving, and one of it's principles was "Drive the Road Ahead". Regardless of the book, I think this is a universal driving rule. It applies to safety as well, i.e. looking for ways to escape accidents.

Does the Cobalt "figure out" you are in EOC when you drive and increase your MPG AVG display accordingly? That would be an accidental bonus if true.

CarloSW2
Sorry if my words are just common sense that most of us know. I just thought it was worth saying there is a connection with looking as far ahead in front of you as you can. That way one can slow down well ahead of a red light, then when it turns green you can bump start and keep on moving without every having to come to a complete stop. for ex. (If traffic allows one to drive in such manner, if I have somebody on me in a hurry I try to either let them get around me or I will speed up for their sake- We have a few people here that work really strange shifts so some may be going to work while others are going to bed, and one yet is the younger ones going to the large college in town may be running late for class. The local police have mostly been good to me (except for one state boy that was just rude to me during a sobriety check and he tried to "scare the truth" out of me, but there was nothing to confess too. This guy looked as if he was on steroids with arms bigger than my legs and a military flat top.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your question about my car figuring out I am in EOC. I can, however explain what I know: As soon as I turn the car off/on I double check my RPMs because if I turn it back on too soon it will remain burning gas in idle mode at about900 RPMs. All of the electronics seem to work while in EOC, including the complete dashboard. From all I can gather the Odometer and MPG AVG treats EOC the exact say way it does when driving with the engine on- I can not tell where the Average is any different for EOC- So a fast way of raising the average is to find places to drive to on routes I can run at least 1/3 of the time in EOC. During rush hour when I am at a major intersection I turn my engine OFF while paying strict attention to the light and I try to either bump-start or use the key to have my engine back on a second BEFORE the light turns green.

I also tend to cruise in neutral with the ENGINE ON a lot. I find that in many situations it is unclear as if going to EOC will help, so I coast as long as I can with the engine at idle RPMs, then I decide to either gain speed and then switch to EOC, or keep on going to 5th gear and then to neutral. I think we need an acronym for Engine ON while Cruising, because I strongly believe this method of driving helps MPG as well. If nobody else has a term for it may I suggest one, such as: EONC=Engine on while Cruising in Neutral... ?? ey? OR HAS IT ALREADY BEEN COVERED? BECAUSE I HAVE YET TO DIG UP SUCH A TERM YET.

If I understand your question correctly your asking me does my AVG MPG computer still calculate the same as with the engine ON when in EOC, and that answer is an obvious YES. And it seems most spot-on to me.

If their is NOT yet a term for it, May I submit the term "EONC" as meaning "Engine ON while cruising in Neutral? I drive in this manner a lot because my Cobalt will roll on forever it seems, which I credit the low resistance tires too. I must admit, I used to be hungry for a Hybrid, and despite my Buy American ways, I do have a lot of respect for cars like the Toyota Prius and 2010 Honda Insight Hybrid, along with the Ford and a couple of G.M. Hybrids. I never dreamed that the tips on this site, along with avoiding the 70MPH zone as much as possible could get me to the same and/or better mileage than the EPA numbers for some Hybrids. It's pretty cool when I think of the fact the Hybrids cost right about double what mi car did, with mileage in the same ball bark (EPA numbers). Im sure people driving Hybrids that also do hypermilling are way ahead of me. But I am really happy to get what I am now getting, and now I am still practicing driving this way as safely as I can.

Peace.


Last edited by Jammer; 10-04-2009 at 10:29 PM..
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:23 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Jammer, blame the machine you fingers are touching as you make your next post for the decline of the union auto worker.

My father flew all over the country installing computer systems in US air force bases to computerize their payroll systems in the 1950s and 1960s. The people were so worried about loosing their jobs they hired prostitutes to try to get him in a compromising situation so they could blackmail him and postpone the inevitable.

The auto manufacturers did the same thing. Repetitive redundant operations were taken over by computer controlled robots that need no compensation of any kind.

Do you want to go to the old telephones where you dialed operator and had her connect you to someone across the country and it cost you an hours pay to talk for 5 minutes.
Myrtle the operator is long gone.

Technology will replace every manufacturing job on this planet, if it can be done cost effectively. What is your plan for success?

You must find a niche where you can use you mind and hands in such a way that it is simply not practical to automate the process, or you will become obsolete like the telephone operator and assembly line worker.

Pittsburgh Pennsylvania was a steel town, a dirty cesspool of pollution that fed the manufacturing industry. Coal mines measured productivity in human life.

Look at Pittsburgh and the Coal mines today, compare the life expectancies of the steel workers and coal miners to life expectancy today.

If you do not evolve into a valuable productive commodity in today's technology intensive labor environment you are doomed to a slow economic death.

See anyone spray painting cars in a factory recently?

How about running a panel press?

Drilling holes?

Most auto workers today are more of an inspector to make sure the machines are running properly. Go to a manufacturing plant and see how it is done, then compare it to the old moving pictures of assembly lines of the twenties and thirties.

They are almost all gone, replaced by the infernal machines.

Post office manual sorting gone.

Payroll check writing gone.

Steel mills gone.

Traffic cops gone.

The milkman gone.

Telephone operators gone.

This thread demonstrates a sad principle, that we will sit here and argue about whose fault it is when jobs disappear, but do nothing to make a job appear.

People run around to local auctions and buy cheap local stuff and sell it on ebay an make a fortune. That's a job.

Build a house and sell it, that's a job.

My point is simple, look around you and see where there is a potential for income and use your talents to make money. Waiting for someone to do that for you makes you dependant of them and they will use you until they have no more use for you.

I didn't like the way my employers treated me so I opened my own business.

It was the toughest job I ever did in my life, and two years of self employment made me less than 1 dollar an hour, even as late as 1987. While I was busting my arse for nothing how much were the union workers at GM making? I lived in an unheated building without hot water of a place to bathe. Where were the GM workers then? I had to work 12 hour days and join a health club to take a shower at 8:30PM, after starting at 7:00 AM for 1 dollar an hour in 1987. It took years for it to pay off.

They rode that horse into the ground and management did the same thing. Now it's time to pay the piper for their lack of understanding of the larger picture which is they drove their own customers away. No amount of animosity towards any foreign country or their more intelligent approach to customer service will ever bring back home delivered milk, the telephone operator, the traffic cop, or the auto worker.

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Old 10-04-2009, 10:36 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Sorry Mech, my information is that since Japan started winning the car sales war that G.M. started adopting more and more of their style of management and pretty much got away from the one guy turns one screw mentality. Now workers are trained to be able to do multiple jobs, just as I was taught in the American auto parts plants here. But like most things with GM, they drug their feet too long making such changes.

Most of the jobs from the past are still jobs they have in the Chevy plants in Michigan, to the best of my knowledge. I could call to Michigan see first hand. When I was still in High school in 1982 one class in skill trades took my class to a Chevy plant and I seen how hard most of the guys were working. They were going about the speed of a pit stop crew at Nascar. It was a not the easy work I had been told before they did. What some people don't understand was the good jobs like skilled trades- If your a person, such as a welder repair man like my father was, if nothing is broke you have time to kill- I THINK they have changed that one, but I will have to ask some folks in Michigan and see what is the latest on that. I do not recall it being in their 2009 UAW-GM survival guide.

I understand what you mean about technology taking the place of some jobs. People have been worried about this for over 100 years. Robots and computers are tools of the trade, and they do not always work as well as humans can doing the same thing.

You asked about seeing people painting cars.. I hate to say this, but there is a single plant right outside of town here that makes DOORS and BUMPERS for one of the big 3, I can not recall it could of likely been GM or Ford. A cleaning woman that worked for my mother's husband was one of the PEOPLE (not robots) that painted the doors and whatever else they build.

I too ran my own small business for awhile at I made pretty good money when I started it up. I repaired Windows based computers. But due to a sudden breakup of my girlfriend, who just happen to of been renting the home with a separate room I was using for the repair room, AND the very beginning of high fuel and The Recession was kicking in. I lost many good customers because I could not find a location to set up shop unless I could cover a good sum of rent, and there was not enough customer base to cover it. So I had to pull out of it. But for awhile it was one of the coolest work I ever did to make money.

I see blaming robots and machines the same way I do blaming shovels and rakes for taking our jobs. I blame people and not the common worker doing what his boss tells him/her to do, nor do I blame the tools for what has happened. I blame greed and the people that feel anyone that makes more money than they do and actually boycott what amounts to thier own countries economy as being the sole ones to blame. It's all about greed and decades ago I would agree the UAW was not being fair with what they asked for. But for the past 20 years or so all I have heard of is the union giving back everything they ever got. Now GM goes into bankruptcy for what- 60 DAYS?? Anybody smell a rat here? GM has been mis-managed for far too long, which no doubt is one of the reasons that politics took GM's former CEO off the payroll. I am not the only one that sees it this way.

Last edited by Jammer; 10-04-2009 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:19 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Just did a quick search. GM peaked at 600k manufacturing employees, today its 40k or 1/15th of the peak number. The rest of those jobs are gone forever.

I worked at a Chevy dealership in 1973 Jammer.

They were replacing 40 engines a month in the Vegas and the cars were 3 months old. The cylinders were sinking in the aluminum blocks and the head gaskets failed.

Gm tried to tell their customers it was due to Prestone antifreeze.

You know anyone who would replace the antifreeze in a 3 month old car?

The first small block Chevy engines (1955) burned oil at the rate of a quart in less than 200 miles. The manufacturers solution was to pour Bon Ami down the carb while the engine was running, to scuff the cylinder walls.

My Grandmothers 61 Oldsmobile burned oil like a sieve until it hit 20,000 miles and the chrome moly rings finally seated in the cylinders.

My aunts brand new 65 Cadillac ate up the factory tires in 6000 miles. She asked me what tires she should buy. I told her Michelin radials. She replaced them (the Michelins) 13 years later with 65,000 miles on them because the side walls were dry rotted. The tread was still good.

The 73 Chevys at the dealership where I worked would not keep running if you started the engine and put the car in gear. You had to let the engine run for 3 minutes before it would not stall when you put it in gear.

You see, people remember when they got a car that was a disappointment, even more so when it was an outright lemon. Fool me once shame on me, keep on trying to fool me and you are out of here.

That same year (1973) Subaru brought its first car into the US. Honda was selling civics by the tens of thousands. They got 50 MPG and did not stall when they were cold. I spent a lot of time finishing the job the factory workers left unfinished at GM while they made a good living and I got the crappy crumbs. The warranty labor was pitiful.

The Vega was supposed to be the first computer built car. It didn't even have primer under the headlight doors. They rusted away in months. I have seen a Buick with a 6 inch diameter hole in the fender, 6 months from the day it was built.

With all of those nightmares due to GM poor quality control. I still went to Long Island New York to pick up a 99 Eldorado for my mother. I flew to Orlando Florida to pick up another Eldorado for Pop. His car cost $6000 with 60,000 miles, a 2001 model. It was close to 40 grand new.

They live about 250 yards from a very fine mechanic, since I am too old and beat up to fix their cars for them anymore. They have enough cash in the bank to buy almost any new car sold in this country. They even managed to get 31 MPG in the Eldorado driving up to Delaware to play the slot machines.

Have they (GM) improved their quality, absolutely.

Am I going out and buy a new GM product?

Probably not. I like to give all new cars a few years to see which ones are really the winners. Heck I even wait a couple of years for the movies to come to my TV at home.

Last post on this thread for me.

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Old 10-05-2009, 12:44 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Thanks Mech that paints your background pretty well. I think you mentioned working as a mechanic for a dealership before, and I would of thought such a job would be a life time career, unless their people were abusing you, not paying etc for your jobs.

I think we all agree that the stuff GM put out in the 1970's were of the worst quality cars every built. Now even GM admits to it as they paint graphs showing how much they have improved their own quality which shows that decade very very very low. They knew they had serious quality problems, and much of it could be blamed on some bad workers, and many on drugs in seeing this was about ten full years before wide spread drug testing. No doubt, my father can name names of guys that worked in his Chevy plant with eyes that told the story of being up all night smoking weed and snorting the white stuff. We all agree they had a bad decade then. And I am not saying the 80s were much better. I think they were TRYING to turn around, but they were so dang big that changes never came fast enough.

Im a banjo player. and even Gibson Banjos took a big hit in the quality department. So I have reason to believe mostly everything we made in the 70's was poor quality. Except for those great tv shows, bubblegum and DISCO!
HAHA

Hey, I was reading this story about the time you made your post, it says a little bit about workers and bosses doing everthing they are asked to do, yet their plant gets shut down while the Mexican plant remains open. How would YOU feel if you worked there?

Workers apprehensive on last day at GM Pontiac plant | detnews.com | The Detroit News

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Old 12-18-2009, 01:13 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Oil Price

Crude Oil price charts, Heating Oil & Commodities. Plus Articles & Analysis on Oil, Natural Gas, Metals and Alternative Energy. Free Oil Prices and Energy
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:35 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Crude Oil price charts, Heating Oil & Commodities. Plus Articles & Analysis on Oil, Natural Gas, Metals and Alternative Energy. Free Oil Prices and Energy
Have you got a chart for Geo Thermal hook ups? My father got some for hearing and cooling their very big house they own (I am tempted to call it a Manson), and the electricity bills are almost 1/2 what they were this time last year.

I talked to the manager as they drilled the 3 deep wells for the coils and he said his business was so busy he had a back log and might need to expand. My father used to pay close to $500 in electricity charges doing 0 degree windy months- however thats the SAME price as my friends with 70 foot trailers often get charged because the buildings have almost no insulation and tons of leaky windows.

All of the new taxpayer-paid for buildings in this area are coming with Geo-thermal as well (Schools, hospitals, libraries etc,) as it is a very much proven method to save electricity on heating and cooling. The cost of Geo Thermal is coming down too and much of it can be taken off one's taxes. My fathers Geo-Thermal cost $15,000 - BUT a tax write-off made a world of difference for him.
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:06 PM   #118 (permalink)
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It's NOT geothermal. Geothermal's when you have a hot spring or similar source, and use the heat directly - your only energy cost is a little bit for pumping water through the system. (And geothermal doesn't do a thing for cooling.) Those are ground-source heat pumps, an entirely different technology. They are, as you say, a good way to reduce heating costs, and they can be used for cooling in the summer, but calling them geothermal is at best a mistake, if not false advertising.
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:22 PM   #119 (permalink)
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GeoThermal

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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
It's NOT geothermal. Geothermal's when you have a hot spring or similar source, and use the heat directly - your only energy cost is a little bit for pumping water through the system. (And geothermal doesn't do a thing for cooling.) Those are ground-source heat pumps, an entirely different technology. They are, as you say, a good way to reduce heating costs, and they can be used for cooling in the summer, but calling them geothermal is at best a mistake, if not false advertising.
Ah, yes it is. Google it and make a note of the model with 3 wells drilled and you will see the one he got. This was researched before he bought the system. There are OTHER types of GeoThermal, but what he bought is indeed the same technology as I have seen the paper work with the same name stamped on the manual. No doubt about it, and no need to pass GO. It is what I claim.

"(And geothermal doesn't do a thing for cooling.) "

Oh really? There are more than one type of GeoThermal, perhaps you have them confused. All one has to do is google the term, as I did, and one finds such results as I linked to and posted below:"

Go Here:
Geothermal Heating & Air Conditioning

Here is a Quote: "This marvelous technology relies primarily on the Earth’s natural thermal energy, a renewable resource, to heat or cool a house or multi-family dwelling. The only additional energy GeoExchange systems require is the small amount of electricity they employ to concentrate what Mother Nature provides and then to circulate high-quality heating and cooling throughout the home.

Homeowners who use GeoExchange systems give them superior ratings because of their ability to deliver comfortably warm air, even on the coldest winter days, and because of their extraordinarily low operating costs. As an additional benefit, GeoExchange systems can provide inexpensive hot water, either to supplement or replace entirely the output of a conventional, domestic water heater.

GeoExchange heating and cooling is cost effective because it uses energy so efficiently. This makes it very environmentally friendly, too. For these reasons, federal agencies like the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Energy, as well as state agencies like the California Energy Commission, endorse"


And On This Page we have a company using BOTH terms, "GeoThermal" AND "Ground Based Heat Pumps" interchangeably - And that is what my father has, and they had to drill 3 very very deep wells then they hit the water table and had to back off a bit. SEE:http://www.igshpa.okstate.edu/geothe...esidential.htm

"Such can be seen from this quote from the same link above: The Department of Energy (DOE) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) have both endorsed ground source heat pump systems as among the most energy efficient and environmentally friendly heating, cooling, and water heating systems available. In a 1993 report, the EPA concluded that geothermal technologies represent a major opportunity for reducing national energy use and pollution, while delivering comfort, reliability and savings to homeowners."

I have no idea what you are speaking of.

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