Would a modern car with drum brakes all-around still have a chance?

[freebeard]

Speaking of Frozen Rotors:



Cryogenic tempering FTW.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by SkauneJohan

i think it also has to do with car makers wanting to make more money, modern cars with disc all round often need rear discs replaced and rear brakes serviced

It's often pointed out that service is often an even bigger source of revenue for some dealers than actually selling new cars.

rusty rear discs anyone?

Front discs too. No wonder I have seen so many folks who refuse to adapt disc brakes with off-the-shelf parts from a more recent model-year as an upgrade to some older vehicles still used as a workhorse.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

It's often pointed out that service is often an even bigger source of revenue for some dealers than actually selling new cars.

Service is a bigger source of profits for dealers than new car sales but if is important to remember that outside of Tesla - dealerships aren't owned by the manufacturer.

I can flat out say that we do no design cars to fail so dealers can make money on service. The less a customer has to interact with a dealer the better for the manufacturer.

We also make vehicles to be as easy to service as reasonably possible.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

We also make vehicles to be as easy to service as reasonably possible.

Sometimes it feels like that's not the case. (e.g. Right to repair).

Speaking of brakes, I thought that my 8 year old Avalon could use a brake fluid change. Maybe it doesn't, and Toyota doesn't recommend a brake fluid change for the whole life of the vehicle. But seeing how several Prius owners have had their brake actuator go out, which ends up costing well over $1,000 to replace, I thought it might be a good idea to do some preventative maintenance.

But to do it on a hybrid (or maybe on any modern car with ABS) you need the special scan tool from the OEM. In my case, an expensive subscription to Toyota TIS (like $2,000 per year). So I thought I'd just have the dealer do it.

I took it in for an airbag recall and told them to go ahead and change the radiator fluid, the engine oil and the brake fluid. They kept telling me that the transmission also needed it, but I had changed that myself not that long ago. But once all said and done, they had changed everything except the brake fluid. It was nearly 5PM and the dealership is 4 hours from my house. So I gave up and went home.

I still don't have my brake fluid changed and have no hope to ever get it done. Maybe I don't need it. Or maybe in a few months I'll need a $2,000 brake actuator.

That and I can't fix my radio... I've rebuild whole engines before and replaced transmissions and brake systems and entire suspension systems and even have done alignments! But now I can't even change the freaking brake fluid or get my radio to work right!

It's small things like those that are frustrating.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by JSH

Service is a bigger source of profits for dealers than new car sales but if is important to remember that outside of Tesla - dealerships aren't owned by the manufacturer.

Because Tesla have stores instead of dealerships? The other manufacturers are owned by the UAW.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

The less a customer has to interact with a dealer the better for the manufacturer.

Makes sense. Well, I often see many people complaining about the higher cost of service at dealers, while independent mechanics provide equivalent service at a more reasonable cost, and eventually get the very same replacement parts cheaper by searching at the supplier's catalog instead of the automaker's.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Sometimes it feels like that's not the case. (e.g. Right to repair).

Right to repair is a tricky subject. There is already a court settlement between independent shops and automakers to provide independent shops access to the diagnostic tools available to dealerships. That happened back in 2014.

The most recent battle has moved beyond just repair and is a fight to gain access to the source code. This is a level of access that even dealerships don't have.

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Speaking of brakes, I thought that my 8 year old Avalon could use a brake fluid change. Maybe it doesn't, and Toyota doesn't recommend a brake fluid change for the whole life of the vehicle. But seeing how several Prius owners have had their brake actuator go out, which ends up costing well over $1,000 to replace, I thought it might be a good idea to do some preventative maintenance.

But to do it on a hybrid (or maybe on any modern car with ABS) you need the special scan tool from the OEM. In my case, an expensive subscription to Toyota TIS (like $2,000 per year). So I thought I'd just have the dealer do it.

I'm surprised your Avalon doesn't recommend brake fluid changes. My 2005 and 2009 Prius required changes every 2 years - which is pretty standard for any modern car with ABS brakes. The issue is that people that never activate ABS can trap old fluid in the ABS valves and gum them up.

Any independent shop should have a tool capable of activating the ABS system and purging brake fluid on your Toyota. However, if you want to do it the cheap way like me you can simply change the fluid, do a series of hard stops to cycle the ABS and then change the fluid again. Cheaper than a visit to the shop.

When I said automakers try to make vehicles easy to service I was talking about access to parts. I wish more people could see the development process we go through on a new model with service people there giving input from the first digital review.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by JSH

The most recent battle has moved beyond just repair and is a fight to gain access to the source code. This is a level of access that even dealerships don't have.

Looking at the EPA crackdown at some tuning shops due to them tweaking with stock emissions-control systems on Diesel trucks, I guess automakers are even more willing to avoid being held responsible for anything related to that.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Looking at the EPA crackdown at some tuning shops due to them tweaking with stock emissions-control systems on Diesel trucks, I guess automakers are even more willing to avoid being held responsible for anything related to that.

Manufacturers aren't worried about getting hit with emission fines for illegal tunes. They are worried about tunes that damage engines within the warranty period and owners trying to commit warranty fraud by claiming the car is stock. As we discussed in another thread manufacturers are in an encryption arms race with turners to lock out illegal tuning and make illegal tuning permanently visible on the ECU. Right to repair advocates are pushing for laws that would require manufacturers to turn over the keys to that encryption.

I'm all for right to repair (RTR). That is to repair your car - to maintain it and keep it running in like new condition. To have access to parts, tools, and repair knowledge. I'm all for allowing work to be done by individuals or independent shops and keep warranty coverage.

I'm not for requiring manufacturers to have to make it easy to illegally modify cars or make warranty fraud easier. It is no surprise that SEMA is actively pushing legislation that would it easier for their members to make illegal tuning products. They know that the vast majority of their business is illegal mods.

I'm also not keen on making the details of OTA updates public as RTR advocates would like. Manufactures are working hard to make ever increasingly connect cars secure from hackers. It seems stupid to just give them all the code.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

Manufacturers aren't worried about getting hit with emission fines for illegal tunes. They are worried about tunes that damage engines within the warranty period and owners trying to commit warranty fraud by claiming the car is stock. As we discussed in another thread manufacturers are in an encryption arms race with turners to lock out illegal tuning and make illegal tuning permanently visible on the ECU. Right to repair advocates are pushing for laws that would require manufacturers to turn over the keys to that encryption.

I'm all for right to repair (RTR). That is to repair your car - to maintain it and keep it running in like new condition. To have access to parts, tools, and repair knowledge. I'm all for allowing work to be done by individuals or independent shops and keep warranty coverage.

I'm not for requiring manufacturers to have to make it easy to illegally modify cars or make warranty fraud easier. It is no surprise that SEMA is actively pushing legislation that would it easier for their members to make illegal tuning products. They know that the vast majority of their business is illegal mods.

I'm also not keen on making the details of OTA updates public as RTR advocates would like. Manufactures are working hard to make ever increasingly connect cars secure from hackers. It seems stupid to just give them all the code.

Interesting. I see that would be a problem. Kind of like giving out the code to unlock cars and reprogram keys and then anyone who wants to become a car thief has suddenly got an easy way to do it.

Or like when people didn't check their tire pressure and then all got SUV's that weigh so much they destroy the tire and lose control when you don't have enough air in one. So then the OEMs have to put tire pressure monitoring systems on their vehicles. Which because of that those of us who like changing their winter and summer tires with their own rims have to either deal with a blinking tire light all winter or pay a shop to either change the rims or the sensor codes.

The point is you can't really trust even your average car owner some times. But on the other hand it's frustrating when you just want to do something that seems like it should be so simple, yet it seems impossible.

I did ask the biggest shop in town if they could change my brake fluid. They said they didn't have the tool to do it. Maybe the next town over, but the road is closed except weekends and it's 3 hours to go around.