You won't believe how an obscure regulator may make gas prices explode in 2020 with this one trick!

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Some government-enforced regulations might be unavoidable, but it does require some long-term planning, and technical aspects must be observed in order to reach a reasonable balance between the so-called "sustainability" and the viability of the operation.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Natalya

LOL do those people not deserve to live? How many people need to die before the threshold is reached to do something about this pollution? Is there a magic number? Are the lives of other living breathing human beings less valuable than some "pain" at the gas pump? Is paying an extra 30 cents for a gallon of gas a "punishment" so intolerable that it warrants the deaths of others?

I'll take a stab at this one...

My first objection is regarding how the data shows x number of people die due to y every t amount of time.. How was that determined? The worlds people are living longer than at any other time in history, and that despite whatever the pollution levels are. Then, who's to say they were killed by pollution? It may have been a contributing factor and they would have died a day later had the pollution not been around. So the fact is suspect to begin with and lacks any context at all.

We put monetary value on human life all the time. Absolutely everything made could be made safer if only some incremental amount more was spent. At some point we determine that something has been made safe enough, and we accept that people will still die.

So, would I personally spend $0.30 more per gallon to save 1 human life; absolutely. I'd do that the rest of my life if I knew some person whose life would have been cut much shorter could instead live a "full life". If instead the $0.30/gallon saves 1/100,000th of a life that was cut 1 month shorter than it otherwise would have, then no, I'm not spending the extra thirty cents.

It's absolutely pointless and evil to try to paint someone as heartless just because they understand that everything is a trade-off and that their calculus for that trade-off differs.

...as to MPG guy; the way he phrased the response was either intended to provoke a reaction, which you provided, or perhaps he doesn't actually care that much.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

It's absolutely pointless and evil to try to paint someone as heartless just because they understand that everything is a trade-off and that their calculus for that trade-off differs.

That's a good point. BTW most of the eco-terrorists who try to paint everyone else as evil for not following their bandwagon are the first ones to reject some practical solutions for the real problems.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Natalya

LOL do those people not deserve to live? How many people need to die before the threshold is reached to do something about this pollution? Is there a magic number? Are the lives of other living breathing human beings less valuable than some "pain" at the gas pump? Is paying an extra 30 cents for a gallon of gas a "punishment" so intolerable that it warrants the deaths of others?

I'd rather donate 60 cents a gallon to an organization actively working to improve the living conditions of humans, than 30 cents a gallon to the government, of which only a fraction of it will do anything.

Redpoint did a good job of expounding on what I didn't really have the time to say. I won't repeat it for risk of redundancy.

Originally Posted by Natalya

Yeah when pigs fly right?

So what are we going to do then, force people to be charitable through government regulations? Look at history; the more control the government has over a person's personal freedom, belongings, money, etc., the poorer the nation usually is and the quicker it is to fall.

Straw man/slippery slope argument, etc., possibly, but while yes, this is just one regulation, but then it becomes one more, and one more, and then one more, until you have total governmental dictatorship, initiated by an ignorant population that willingly submitted themselves to an unrevealed tyranny.

Not going to engage in a debate on this topic as that will derail from the thread, but consider examples such as Venezuela, and the former USSR and Nazi Germany. How many lives have been lost due to all that?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Not going to engage in a debate on this topic as that will derail from the thread, but consider examples such as Venezuela, and the former USSR and Nazi Germany. How many lives have been lost due to all that?

I've already had the chance to talk with people who have lived under those examples. If I were still fool enough to believe that some "government-enforced solidarity" could actually work, talking to those people would've opened my mind. Sure some degree of environmental awareness and its impact on the lives of other people is a relevant matter, but it would be pointless to get rid of common sense in order to achieve a so-called "equality" which leaves anyone but the leading politics to extreme povertry.

[Natalya]

Thanks for calling me evil and referring to people like me as eco-terrorists. That's what I am and deserve to be called because I gave a s*** about some other people. That makes me evil. Thank you.

Also the hypothetical 30 cents doesn't go to the government it goes to the oil companies or refineries to pull the sulpher out of the fuel. We are talking about the fuel the boats are using. Unless I understand the problem incorrectly, I thought it was pressure on the companies to refine the fuel will cost them money and the price of doing that will affect general global gas prices. Am I missing something?

And what the heck are you guys trying to do here? Do you guys like breathing in smog? We have smog here it sucks it is not a good time. My understanding is my city has high rates of asthma and ear infections because of it. Are you trying to defend air pollution? Or is it just some government conspiracy jfk assassination illuminati lizard people interior sun bull**** the government is trying to pull over on us so they can have the new world order? If it's a conspiracy they're doing a really good job because I can see it in the sky. It must have cost them a lot of money to make the sky hazy on bad smog days. Gosh I'd hate to live in California I can't even imagine what they deal with.

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

...as to MPG guy; the way he phrased the response was either intended to provoke a reaction, which you provided, or perhaps he doesn't actually care that much.

Once or twice a year I come in here and post something to ruffle the feathers of the wonderful collection of climate deniers and paranoid conspiracy theorists we have in the ecomodder lounge forum. I don't have the energy or time or patience to fight with the people in here all the time and I know I won't get any backup because this is an echo chamber for people like you.

And yes you in particular redpoint, I have read many of your posts over the years, and as far as I can tell you seem to think you've got everything figured out on all kinds of topics and you know what's best. And you probably have enough financial stability and confidence that in your life you may never experience a comeuppance or defeat that may challenge your perspective on things or give you a sense of humility. And you aren't even unique in that respect. There are countless others like you who walk through their lives sure of themselves and everything because it all works out perfectly in your minds, but at the end of the day we are just over evolved monkeys and you're no exception. You don't have a monopoly on wisdom just because you have an easier time putting words together or you have undentable confidence. And you can use that to swat me away as though I am an annoying fly. And you can say "oh look you reacted to this post see i triggered you" and discount everything I say, but just because you are unshaken doesn't mean you actually know anything or are right about any of the topics discussed in this thread, or the other ones I've read where you weighed in.

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

So what are we going to do then, force people to be charitable through government regulations? Look at history; the more control the government has over a person's personal freedom, belongings, money, etc., the poorer the nation usually is and the quicker it is to fall.

Straw man/slippery slope argument, etc., possibly, but while yes, this is just one regulation, but then it becomes one more, and one more, and then one more, until you have total governmental dictatorship, initiated by an ignorant population that willingly submitted themselves to an unrevealed tyranny.

You are out of your mind if you think having pollution controls against cargo ships burning high sulpher fuels is going to lead to the fall of nations that embrace that regulation.

[Natalya]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

That's a good point. BTW most of the eco-terrorists who try to paint everyone else as evil for not following their bandwagon are the first ones to reject some practical solutions for the real problems.

You're right, it's evil to be concerned about the total annihilation of our environment. I should get out of big oil's way. They know what's best. I'll sell my Honda Insight and buy an Escalade so I can better support the oil companies.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Natalya

You are out of your mind if you think having pollution controls against cargo ships burning high sulpher fuels is going to lead to the fall of nations that embrace that regulation.

Already anticipated and addressed your response:

Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy

Straw man/slippery slope argument, etc., possibly,
^ already pointed out the potential fallacy

but while yes, this is just one regulation, but then it becomes one more, and one more, and then one more,
^ the reason behind the argument, that already answers your question

until you have total governmental dictatorship, initiated by an ignorant population that willingly submitted themselves to an unrevealed tyranny.
^ the historical outcome of such things

^ extra emphasis added by me

And no, don't misuse my words. I don't believe that pollution control in and of itself will cause the fall of nations. Excessive government control beyond protecting and preserving basic human freedom causes poverty and death; the examples I already mentioned prove this. Oftentimes this does cause either the downfall of the nation, or a virtual enslavement of its people.

I believe our energy would be better spent advocating for electric vehicles than about overtaxing gasoline.