Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[Fat Charlie]

It has efficiency as a feature, which means the marketing people allow it to have efficiency features that are visible.

[3-Wheeler]

Originally Posted by EVmetro

......Killing the engine when it is not needed makes good sense. What would happen if you killed the engine on the comparable ICE as well? Efficient fuel management does not need to be unique to hybrids, does it?....

Consumer Reports published a "Car" exclusive last year, and the Prius was "the" most cost effective car in the study. It had the lowest cost per mile of all the cars in the comparison.

Now I can't recall if every car that "you" may think should be included, was included, but that study made an impression on me.

The main advantage of running off battery most of the time, and only starting the ICE to charge the battery when necessary does indeed save fuel, in spite of the extra vehicle weight that it hauls around.

One could drive a normal ICE and accomplish the same thing as a hybrid, but I can't honestly ask my wife to drive her car that way. A hybrid does it all automatically for her. No muss, no fuss.

Take a look at Fuelly some time and make your own comparisons.

When it's time for my wife to get a new car in a few years, I will be looking at a hybrid.

Jim.

[MobilOne]

To clarify this discussion, we should define some terms. For example: efficiency. Efficiency basically refers to how much you get out for what you put in. In vehicle terms, one measure is ton-miles per calorie burned. So, with this measure the most efficient are railroads, next would be over the road semi's, especially those that carry steel or dry cement or similar materials. Another definition of efficiency could refer to the total cost of the vehicle with respect to its usefulness. Another could be to the usefulness of a vehicle with respect to its impact on the planet. So, please relate what you are referring to when you use the term "efficient".

[nimblemotors]

You could not find any actual data??
Other than the actual data, i.e. the mpg of the cars.
If toyota could make the Echo get 55mpg instead of a Prius, do you think they would?

Originally Posted by EVmetro

I have noticed that Hybrids typically come with instrumentation that could show a driver how to drive more efficiently, and that many hybrid owners are interested in conserving fuel. I have also noticed that people in this forum have reported significant gains in their fuel economy since installing a scangauge or comparable instrumentation, and like many hybrid owners, the people who use a scangauge are interested in boosting their fuel economy.

What I am concerned about, is that I can't find any actual data that supports hybrids being able to be more efficient. I am not talking about mpg claims, I am talking about science. What technology makes a hybrid any more efficient than the comparable ICE?

[MobilOne]

To continue down the treacherous road that I have chosen, one of my sons bought a Nissan Leaf. He loves the fact that he doesn't have to buy gas and electricity is cheap where he lives (GA). But, that only partly the reason that he bought a Leaf. The real reasons are the $7500 federal tax credit and the Georgia $4500 tax credit. Plus he leases it to his corporation which depreciates it. Its all legit since he use it solely for his business. I would say that HE is efficient, as well as the Leaf. Lol

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by EVmetro

What if you took that smaller motor and put it in the comparable ICE, minus all of the Hybrid related technology?

Not feasible in the US market. It will get laughed out of showrooms.

Product developers refer to this as "consumer acceptance." Cars that do 0-60 in more than 9 seconds are considered "too slow" anymore. Unacceptable.

Case in point: the most efficient non-hybrid car you can currently buy in the U.S. is the Mitsu Mirage. 2000 lbs, cd 0.28, 1.2L, 3-cylinders, 74 hp. It has been regularly mocked in the U.S. motoring press as being an underpowered penalty box on wheels, verging on "dangerously slow". (For reference, it's slightly faster and slightly more efficient than the last generation Chevy Metro.)

What would happen if you killed the engine on the comparable ICE as well?

This will be widespread in U.S. non-hybrids within about 5-10 years.

What penalties come from hauling around the waste energy harvesting system? ... How much additional gasoline is needed to haul this system around or to recharge it when one is traveling long distance?

Hauling around the hybrid system is a net benefit for a typical driver.

Have you researched car models which have both a hybrid and non-hybrid version? Honda Civic, Toyota Camry, Ford Fusion, etc. There's sufficiently large enough ownership of each model that you could compare owner-reported fuel consumption (eg. on Fuelly), and could reasonably expect that the hybrid owners are not all hypermilers skewing the numbers.

If the question you're getting to is: Can you build a small, light, aerodynamic, LRR vehicle with smart ICE management which outperforms the fuel economy of today's mass-market hybrids?

The answer is obviously YES.

Will it sell in enough numbers to justify manufacturing it? NOPE.

[2000mc]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

You could not find any actual data??
Other than the actual data, i.e. the mpg of the cars.
If toyota could make the Echo get 55mpg instead of a Prius, do you think they would?

Echo seems like the most direct comparision I can think of
2001 echo MT 29/32/37
2001 prius 42/41/41
Also illustrates where the gains are to be made, smaller gains on the highway, bigger gains stop and go.

[mikeyjd]

Originally Posted by 2000mc

Echo seems like the most direct comparision I can think of
2001 echo MT 29/32/37
2001 prius 42/41/41
Also illustrates where the gains are to be made, smaller gains on the highway, bigger gains stop and go.

But, as Echofrancis and others have shown, the Echo has greater hypermiling potential, since it's offered in a manual trans and isn't as optimized for economy out of the box as the Prius.

If the Echo was optimized for fuel economy as much as the Prius it would likely outperform the Prius and people would have much less reason the spend the extra on the Hybrid system.

[RedDevil]

I'll bite.

A hybrid is not just an engine plus some electric gadgetry. It is a system.
The HSD tranny in a Prius is unlike any other and could not work in a non-hybrid.
The 2nd gen Insight (and likes) just use a CVT - but get the most out of that.

My dad bought a Jazz (=Fit) Hybrid a few weeks ago.
Aha, there is your hybrid that was not designed to be more aerodynamical than a non-hybrid, apart from some details lile a slightly smaller grill (it does not need to be as big).
The Fit Hybrid is heavier, yet much more economical than the comparable CVT trannied Fit. It is also faster.

My dad bought it because it is more pleasant to drive.
Small cars with auto trannies usually have a horrendous latency when you accelerate. CVT drums take ages to spin up. Conventional trannies need a second or more to shift down, then think again and shift again.
Not the Fit Hybrid; the electric motor pumps an extra 10 kW into the drivetrain to make them spin up immediately on acceleration. It has traction control - and it needs it. And it is smooth - no jolts, no uncontrolled RPM changes; the acceleration matches the position of the right pedal.

My car is technically identical to the Fit Hybrid.
It has a tiny 1.3 liter 8-valve 4-cylinder engine.
It has the 10kW electric motor/generator.
It does not have a flywheel. (that's the EV motor, actually).
It does not have an alternator. (again, the EV motor does that)
It has but never uses a starter engine (yet again - taking 0.6 seconds for it at most)

On light or no throttle it will go into DFCO - but then it will also start to generate electricity to recharge the hybrid battery.
Or it wil push the engine to prolong the glide while maintaining DFCO, when you still pust the throttle.
At lower speeds it can even accelerate electrically.

It cannot do that indefinitely; the state of charge will drop even if you keep driving very slow - or to be more precise, at very light throttle.
It will fire up the engine again at some point, but instead of running it very lean (and inefficient) it will open the throttle wider and recharge the battery with the excess power.

Now you may think you don't need all that when you're on the highway.
Constant speed, constant throttle, what's the use of the hybrid system then?
I'd say hook up that gauge and see how much the power actually fluctuates.
Using CC I see 50% variations in power on an almost flat and seemingly featureless motorway.
So I see the system charge and discharge somewhat, ironing out the hidden changes.
When I try to DWL I find that I have to adapt the pressure all the time to keep the speed more or less steady, like in going with the flow of traffic or keeping within 10 mph of target speed.

But even on a windless day on a perfectly flat road the hybrid system helps, by allowing the engine to be small and rev extremely low while being ready to provide the power when it is needed.

Some people here ecomod and ecodrive their cars to the extreme.
I drive carefully and as slow as conditions allow for - which usually means running it at speeds up to or above 65 mph in the right lane of a multilane highway. If there are no traffic jams.
I dodge those going the rural route - but rural is relative in this densely populated country, and it is often jammed just the same.

I don't think I do bad, given the circumstances.
I doubt anyone could beat my economy in a non-hybrid of the same size and using gasoline, driving the same route in the same conditions and speed.
Because I know how to get 90 mpg in my car, without effort.
Just not possible in these conditions.

[Fat Charlie]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

My dad bought a Jazz (=Fit) Hybrid a few weeks ago.

Aha, there is your hybrid that was not designed to be more aerodynamical than a non-hybrid, apart from some details lile a slightly smaller grill (it does not need to be as big).

The Fit Hybrid is heavier, yet much more economical than the comparable CVT trannied Fit. It is also faster.

What's sad is how few other platforms have that done to them. By and large, hybrid isn't a powertrain choice, it's a statement! An adventure! A lifestyle choice!

In the overall fleet, they're adding hidden efficiency features as long as they think nobody will notice- or think other people are going to notice that they have them. Active grilles, stop/start and multi-displacement aren't visible, help on the EPA test and don't cost much. A whole hybrid system costs more to build, so it's sold as something separate. It's hard for customers to compare apples to apples if a conventional powertrain isn't available in the mpg chassis.

They need the mpg, but it still all comes down to marketing.