Ethanol in gasoline

[bennelson]

Both gasoline and petro-diesel were all about profit.

In the early days, a person could only get gasoline in the city. If they wanted to drive to the country, they could bring spare tanks of gasoline with them, or stop at almost any farm and get alcohol fuel, which farmers could make themselves. Alcohol was used for lighting and to fuel tractors and equipment

When asked about why Mr. Ford persisted in making cars that can run on alcohol, he said.
"There are a lot more stills in this country than gasoline stations"

I couldn't find the exact quote, but he also said something pretty close to: Why would any farmer want to BUY gasoline, when he can just make is own alcohol?

Keep in mind that the early 1900s farmer was an amazing blend of ecologist, blacksmith, chemist, manager, and other skills too numerous to count. He was one of the most amazing and independent persons of American history.

John D. Rockefeller made lots of money in kerosene. Gasoline was a toxic waste product of its production, which meant it made cheap automobile fuel, because it would otherwise have to be covertly dumped into rivers at night!

Rudolf Diesel did indeed run his engine on peanut oil, at least at the 1900 World Fair. He experimented with many fuels, including powdered coal (which he never got to work)

The main fuel he began to work with was Nut Palm Oil. Of course, planting and growing palm trees takes a while. In the mean time Rockefeller had chemists working on petroleum-based diesel fuel.

Rockefeller beat Diesel to market. So, all those palm trees instead were marketed as a high-heat cooking oil, which we have been eating ever since! One more way that cars are making us fat!

Rudolf Diesel died under mysterious circumstances in the English Channel. If it was suicide, murder, or just and accident, we will never know.

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

I'm not sure about that. but I know that ethanol was going to be used as the main fuel in the Ford Model T (so my friend who was gonna get one was saying) but since gas was cheaper, they went with that instead.

I heard a little anecdote about gas and alcohol on the radio today. The story was that Rockefeller was promoting prohibition as a way to squelch his competition in the auto fuel market. Interesting.

I saw E85 for sale for the first time last Friday, in upstate New York. Haven't seen it anywhere near me. It was cheaper than gas. Also saw a flex fuel Taurus today, they seem to pop up fairly often.

[guudasitgets]

As a race car nut, I have and have some experiance with that "other" alcohol nobody seems to be bringing up and you don't here too much talk about in the press, the old racers favorite, Methanol. It has slightly higher octane numbers and can be made from everything like old tires to tree scrap. The recycling world loves it, only one problem, it's toxic. And if youve ever been to a sprint car race and stood next to an engine running on the stuff it will make a grown man cry, BUT; it also will allow an engine the ability to make more horsepower and run much higher compression. Only thing in that reguard is you won't be able to run any kind of gasoline if you need to. I think that may turn out to be the answer. And we don't have to worry about depleting the corn supply.

[bennelson]

Can you imagine being powerful enough to ban everyone's favorite drink to run your competition out of business?

That Rockefeller fella was smart and rich and powerful.

Seems pretty unlikely that an all male, hard-drinking congress would ban liquor only because of the Temperance League.

But think about how money and politics are tangled up nowadays. Do you think all these bailouts would be going on if banking and cars and politicians weren't such tight bedfellows?

I found the other Henry Ford quote I was looking for:
"The small producer of alcohol never need fear competition from the big producers, such as the Whisky Trust. In the first place, the supply of raw material is unlimited. Not until someone learns how to control the sun and its light can there be a monopoly in the raw material for alcohol manufacture."
-Henry Ford, Detroit News, December 13, 1916

Guess Mr. Ford didn't see the episode of THE SIMPSONS where Mr. Burns blocks out the sun!

Seriously though, politics, war over oil, and the control of supply all take away our ability to control our own fates. We allow our power to go to somebody else.

Ethanol has the POTENTIAL to be a much better fuel than gasoline. It can also be created without pulling all this carbon out of the earth and placing it in our atmosphere.

Now I am not saying it IS being created and used the way it should right now. Right now, it's MOSTLY being created in not the best way, but I still feel it's better than gasoline in that it does burn cleaner and is essentially carbon neutral.

[Formula413]

One thing I don't get about flex fuel vehicles is how you can make an engine that will run on either E85 or gasoline. It would seem to necessitate huge compromises. If you wanted to build an engine to run just E85 you would want the compression to be something like 12:1-13:1 as I understand it. But of course even 93 octane would not work in such an engine. There is only so much you can do by retarding timing. If you leave the compression down in gasoline territory (9:1-10:1 for 87 octane) than running E85 in it would just be a waste. I've been trying to find more info on the tradeoffs used to make a flex fuel engine, anyone have any good links?

[DifferentPointofView]

^
engine is made from different materials that resist corrosion and the electronics do the timing stuff. but you loose a lot of mpg's from using E85. they're built to run on gas, but can run on E 85 or anything between. its pretty much a waste.

I saw E85 for sale for the first time last Friday, in upstate New York. Haven't seen it anywhere near me.

I had a good link once, gotta find it though.

You obviously haven't been to the midwest much.

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

^
engine is made from different materials that resist corrosion and the electronics do the timing stuff. but you loose a lot of mpg's from using E85. they're built to run on gas, but can run on E 85 or anything between. its pretty much a waste.

My thinking is, if you built an engine specifically to run on E85, you could get just as much power and fuel economy as a gasoline engine by using much more compression. E85 can't match the energy density of gasoline, but it's advantage is it's much higher octane rating (104). That's why I don't get the point of flex fuel engines, these two fuels are really apples and oranges.

Originally Posted by DifferentPointofView

I had a good link once, gotta find it though.

AFDC Ethanol: E85 Fueling Station Locations

[MazdaMatt]

E85 is 104octane equivalent? So would E85 make good race car fuel? There is a BIG stink in the racing industry over potential bans on leaded fuel. The reason for the lead is to allow higher compression (and something about valves on older cars, but that's a quick fix)... so if i bumped up the compression on my track-only Del Sol to 13:1, i could run E85 and be green and speedy?

[Formula413]

I think most high compression race cars run high octane gasoline rather than ethanol because it has more energy density. I don't know how much energy density is lost to the octane boosters used but I would bet it's still more potent than E85.

I spend a lot of time on LS1tech, LS1 being the engine used in late model F-bodies and 5th generation Corvettes. I have seen a handful of turbocharged and supercharged LS1s running on E85, it seems to work very well in this application. Forced induction creates similar octane demands to increased compression of course. Plus E85 is MUCH cheaper than race gas.

[MazdaMatt]

Well i'm thinking to myself... gas is too friggen expensive (or at least it will be during race season)... i know how to brew and i can learn how to distill. If i can get the same performance out of a honda D16Z6 at 12:1 using home-made cheap fuel, then why not? I suppose i'd have to basically do a "flex fuel conversion" to the fuel system... might not be worth it in the end... at least till i build a new car.

The sponsorship options with an "eco race car" are much better than "just another stupid honda"