Turbo as a charger?

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Nowadays with the downsizing trend growing strong even in "conservative" markets, such as Brazil, it might seem as an incentive to go further with the development of a commercially-viable approach to integrate an alternator and a turbocharger in less than 10 years. Though it's likely to be more of a supplement to the conventional engine-driven alternator in non-hybrid cars fitted with start-stop, any enhancement to the energy recovery provided by a turbo is worth something...

[Xist]

Gumby, any idea how much they would charge for one of those generators?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Xist

Gumby, any idea how much they would charge for one of those generators?

Don't use a generator, just use an RC drone/helicopter motor. Not hard to find one rated to 30k rpm, and it'll cost you like 100 bucks.

Dr. Mad Thrust Series Motor 4082 - 1400kv for 90mm EDF /8S

41000rpm

If you do some back of the napkin calculations, it should be able to pump out more power than a car alternator, you just have to step it down with a DC DC converter.

This is essentially a motorcycle or race car PM generator on crack. Those spin at 16000rpm and have a really good power to weight ratio, now you're just increasing speed and decreasing torque.

[gumby79]

Originally Posted by Xist

Gumby, any idea how much they would charge for one of those generators?

I did not find a listing may take a phone call.
One more, plausible option Lander 70mm (1700W) 10-blade EDF Unit inc Motor for 6S LiPo
This could could be mounted in the intake system after the Intercooler, it has a plastic blade . A metallic or high temperature plastic blade can be 3D printed to permit hotter Intake Air Temperature. To take advantage of the hot expanded (higher volume ) air right off the compressor. Again risk of failure in a prototype =$1000s damage . So not so good on primary turbo at this time. I am thinking a secondary as before, this time leave it intact and blow through 1to as many as you can afford@£79.95 ea without building to much backpresser,causing the valves to flote.
After much testing this could then advance to the primary and under low boost (turbo lag )it could be powered as a blower of sorts. Negative pressure on the Intake impeller should spool faster. As well as 1-3psi boost at idle posable ( I don't know how thrust translates) More research is in store.
Theory to contemplate. Each ducted fan unit would cause a presser drop =reduction of air temperature., as well as a venture effect.
If we can find one of theas rated for 700°f continuous it could be mounted straight in the exhaust pipe or 1.5"size 1 in each header primarily. Pulses on a moment befor the valve opens then transitions to Generator mode. Ideas I'm full of them.

Gumby stay flexible.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by gumby79

I did not find a listing may take a phone call.
One more, plausible option Lander 70mm (1700W) 10-blade EDF Unit inc Motor for 6S LiPo
This could could be mounted in the intake system after the Intercooler, it has a plastic blade . A metallic or high temperature plastic blade can be 3D printed to permit hotter Intake Air Temperature. To take advantage of the hot expanded (higher volume ) air right off the compressor. Again risk of failure in a prototype =$1000s damage . So not so good on primary turbo at this time. I am thinking a secondary as before, this time leave it intact and blow through 1to as many as you can afford@£79.95 ea without building to much backpresser,causing the valves to flote.
After much testing this could then advance to the primary and under low boost (turbo lag )it could be powered as a blower of sorts. Negative pressure on the Intake impeller should spool faster. As well as 1-3psi boost at idle posable ( I don't know how thrust translates) More research is in store.
Theory to contemplate. Each ducted fan unit would cause a presser drop =reduction of air temperature., as well as a venture effect.
If we can find one of theas rated for 700°f continuous it could be mounted straight in the exhaust pipe or 1.5"size 1 in each header primarily. Pulses on a moment befor the valve opens then transitions to Generator mode. Ideas I'm full of them.

Gumby stay flexible.

Transferring the energy from shaft to compressor to fan is going to be abysmally inefficient, well under 50%.

Those fan blades are also bad for this application. The primary source of energy in the exhaust is the high pressure waves produced when an exhaust valve opens. A turbocharger's turbine is pretty good for this because the exhaust is directed in the direction of the turbine blades' travel, which creates more torque for the same transfer of momentum.

The way I thought of for converting a typical turbocharger to an electric, high efficiency turbo is to grab a turbo one size up (to get a more efficient exhaust turbine) with very high A/R, either swap the compressor to something smaller or mill down the blades to reduce the pressure they can produce, and then somehow extending the shaft a bit so the electric motor can be fitted.

[gumby79]

50% of3300w free/wasted energy is still a benefit for a un engendered off the shelf prototype device. This reduces the cost of build . The power loss is the rpm buffer alowing more common slower motors to be used
In the Edf ideas the power path is: exhaust gas to , exducer/shaft/inducer ,to air ,to Edf fan,smoothing or elminating the pulse issue. With a properly engineered stator befor and after the properly engineered fan blade the % could go up and if you stack 3-5 uinits @50% you are getting more out of evry drop of fule.
As for proper size on a direct drive non-edf ,a VGT or waste gate to control voltage /RPM , and as you stated oversized would be good. The parts for 700°f do not exist yet most only have 200°c limmit. This limmits us to the intake side of the turbo. On the diesel example the turbocharger would be up streem, smoothing the pulses on intake or exhaust. For the header idea the fan was powered before the pulse to create a vacuum @the valve.then would change to gen set mode as the presser changed ,all ready @ operating speed.
4 different ideas were conveyed. 1) blow through form inducer to free air , no pulse. 2) blow through from inducer to engine,(not recommend for prototype ) no pulse . 3) blow through after the turbo, no pulse. 4) in a non turbo system yes pulses are fast and short. this is why it would need to be @speed at the start of the pulse hence the power application part of the idea.

The trick is going to be keeping the bits and pices of a failed prototype from going through the engine causing a totle loss . I for one don't have $5000 laying around for each prototype failure . That is why the slightly off topic ideas.

1 more thing this could bepart of the answer to a cost-effective Turbo Jet APU ( Auxiliary Power Unit ) made from an old /new turbo. Look up turbocharger jet on You Tube. Normally the reduction box cost makes this idea cost prohibitive. The number of uses are more than imaginable.

I for one am glad the power hungry Rc world exist they push The envalope and get better equipment. That we can then throw in a non-standard application for cheep,compared to the R&D that gose Into devloping a ultra high speed BLDC motor.
They did the same with batteries.



.Gumby stay flexible.

[freebeard]

Why couldn't we use turbos to charge an electrical system similar to an alternator? Instead of have it belt driven, attach the alternator to the shaft of the turbine...?

In the last few moments I've become convinced (Not Saying It's True) that Ecomodder is censored. This subject can be found only in the Unicorn Coral, but I recall having created a thread on the subject that is GONE!

For the record, here are new external links:

Beltless Blower: Electrifying the Supercharger - Tech Dept. - Car and Driver
How electric superchargers went from fantasy to feasibility

So what do we learn? In addition to the problem Xist cited, heat does bad things to magnets.

The BMW effort uses a third turbo to supplement two [conventional] others.

Tin foil hats don't help.

[Xist]

Tin foil hats effectively prevent pregnancy... or even dates...

[gumby79]

Originally Posted by freebeard

In the last few moments I've become convinced (Not Saying It's True) that Ecomodder is censored. This subject can be found only in the Unicorn Coral, but I recall having created a thread on the subject that is GONE!

For the record, here are new external links:

Beltless Blower: Electrifying the Supercharger - Tech Dept. - Car and Driver
How electric superchargers went from fantasy to feasibility

So what do we learn? In addition to the problem Xist cited, heat does bad things to magnets.

The BMW effort uses a third turbo to supplement two [conventional] others.

Tin foil hats don't help.

Freebeard your citations contradict your statements .

From the 1st, "The electrically driven compressor shown below reaches its 70,000-rpm maximum operating speed in only a third of a second, according to its maker, U.K.-based Controlled Power Technologie"

From the 2nd one,"Mazda's efficiency-focused i-Eloop system feeds a supercapacitor and then uses the power to run the car's various electric components—but not an electric compressor."

"This is the technology that takes electric supercharging out of the realm of snake-oil fantasy and into legitimacy."
I stated:
As for heat and magnets agreed that js Why i stated ["The parts for 700°f do not exist yet most only have 200°c limmit".
/Resources/Temperature_Effects_On_DC_Motor_Performance.pdf
"
TABLE 3. Temperature Coefficients for Various
Permament Magnet Materials
Magnetic Material
Ceramic. -0.0020 / °C 300 °C
Samarium Cobalt (SmCo) -0.0004 / °C 300 ° C
Aluminum Nickel Cobalt (AlNiCo)-0.0002 / °C540 °C
Neodymium Iron Boron (NdFeB)-0.0012 / °C150 °C
αmagnet( / °C)
Tmax(°C)
"
All but NiFeB are above 432°f 200°C stated

"My thoughts 2nd turbocharger ,my rig already has1. Maby a vgt turbo link . Replace the impeller (as it is the thrust bearing pre load) with a spacer and direct cupple the BLDC400, 000 rpm motor/gen to the shaft." No heat on the inducer side with the inducer removed.
And PERMALINK 14
"This could could be mounted in the intake system after the Intercooler, " The IC (Intercooler )should be putting out air at below 160°f in 110°f ambient ,this is for a porely designed system . A premium system clocer to 140°f@110°f.

[freebeard]

"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes."

Walt Whitman

I was just providing the top current links on Google; I didn't review them. I don't know what Mazda do. BMW use two clutches, so the turbo can spin up quickly, then run as a conventional turbo, then run as an exhaust driven generator.

The parts are shipping in new models and should be entering junkyards at typical BMW rates. I recognize that you are homing in on another solution.