What are the car manufacturers doing??

[cfg83]

dsq -

Originally Posted by dsq

Im probably older than you but thats irrelevant.I was around in the 70s and remember quite well the rise of the imports and fall of the domestics and it certainly wasnt emission related but rather economy,quality.Honda and toyota were well established and had a solid customer base by the late 70s.I know,i was there.

That's also how I remember it. Especially the economy/MPG.

EDIT: I remember watching and waiting for the big three to come out with something that could compete. The Chevy Citation was a disappointment. The Ford Escort/Mercury Lynx was the first car that I thought actually *competed* with the imports on their own terms, but it still fell way short of the 1st Gen CRX. I even have a picture of a Lynx add where a Lynx is holding the earth in it's paws. I should go find it and scan it.

CarloSW2

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

I've been ruminating on what a (much) more efficient automobile would look like, and here are some random thoughts:

We need to use a smaller motor, while still getting enough power out of it, so maybe 1.0-1.3L four cylinder (or maybe even smaller?), with a small turbo? It would also have variable valves, to maximize the low RPM torque (fewer valves with shorter duration, IIANM), and then more valves for longer duration, etc. at higher RPM's. This same mechanism could be used to shut down two of the four cylinders at idle, and in low-demand situations, and then all four cylinders could seamlessly be brought back into operation as more power is demanded. (Maybe with a split crankshaft, and a hydraulic clutch between the halves; to reduce the drag of the non-firing cylinders?) It would not be too hard to have the entire engine be shut off when sitting still.

The transmission would have 6 to 8 speeds; again to help utilize the available power. I would want a manual transmission, but the clutch would be used only in first (or second) gear for getting rolling. Thereafter, gearshifts should be handled like they are in an Formula 1 car: shift paddles under the steering wheel to shift up or down, with the ignition computer "blipping" the engine momentarily while the transmission shifts. In Formula 1 cars, this happens at a mere 19,000RPM, with a 7 speed transmission -- so I can't see why it couldn't be done at 2,000-6,000RPM?

This scheme would allow a direct drive situation with virtually no slippage once the car is rolling. Also, the throwout bearing in the clutch should be well lubricated for coasting. I think that a manual transmission has much better control, for driving in typical New England winter conditions, for example.

All the aerodynamics should be improved to a point where the drag is reasonably close to ideal, without becoming impractical. The underside should be included in this, and also low rolling resistance tires are also key. A while back, I remember seeing tweaks like partially recessed side mirrors, that reduced the aero drag -- this seems like a reasonable thing to do, too. (Or, using video cameras and display screens; al la Aptera?)

There are (at least) five or six things that automobile makers could do to improve the efficiency of all cars/vehicles:

* Using the variable valve technology that is already in many engines, to not only improve the power band (less air flow at low RPM's for more torque, and more air flow at higher RPM's for more horsepower) -- but to also use it to shut off cylinders, when they are not needed. A few V8 engines already do this, and transform themselves in to 4 cylinder engines, when the extra power is not needed. So, why not turn a V6 into a 3-cylinder, or a 4-cylinder into a 2-cylinder? Seems to make a lot of sense to me!

* The Toyota Prius (2nd gen?) uses a vacuum-insulated tank (like a Thermos) to hold hot engine coolant overnight, to be pumped into the engine block to allow it to come up to a good operating temperature much more quickly. This could/should be done on all vehicles, and it would greatly reduce emissions and fuel use at the start of every trip.

* Preheat the fuel right before injecting it into the cylinders -- this will vaporize the fuel (as opposed to simply making it into droplets). This will help increase the power and efficiency of any engine dramatically!

* Use a CVT (continuously variable transmission) instead of a automatic transmission with a torque converter. A CVT transmission provides nearly zero slippage, and it helps the engine operate at the RPM that is best for the situation, and the ratios are infinitely variable, and there is no lag time while you shift.

* Using a CVT transmission makes it possible to do something that the Honda Civic Hybrid (and others) does, and that is shut off the engine when the vehicle is stopped. The instant the driver removes their foot from the brake, the engine is started and it goes on it way, without you even being aware that it was not running.

* Work on reducing both rolling resistant, and aerodynamic drag -- both the underpan of the vehicle and the body, too. Tandem with this, there should be an alarm for when the tire pressure drops below optimum.

* Serial electric hybrids may be the most efficient way to move a car -- they allow you to regain energy through regenerative braking, and plug it in to charge, too.


Can you think of other improvements?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

MSNBC takes a look at the Aptera Type 1:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...51985#24951985

[Compaq888]

pimpin car...it even sounds like a spaceship

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Details Emerging about Honda’s “Affordable” Hybrid

Sounds pretty decent, though it would be better if it was a plug-in serial hybrid (PISH?).

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Here's a great, detailed video tour of the Aptera factory:

[Randy]

I think the different impressions of imports are due to location... the trend basically started on the coasts, especially CA. Here in WA, once in a while you see a 70's era Corona or Civic, but 80's imports are common. Market share still varies a lot in different areas of the country.

The new Hondas sound interesting. I was disappointed when the Fit came out and couldn't even get 40 highway under the old system. There's no way I'd buy something without at least 40 on the sticker, and 45+ would be much better. Hopefully they'll start making high mileage cars again, as the used market has gone crazy.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Here's a Volkswagen that gets 282mpg (0.83 liters per 100 kilometers)!


(click on image for a link)

Here's another article:
VW to relaunch 'one-litre' eco car | Green Cars | Low Emission & Clean Cars | Car Magazine Online



It weighs just 300kg (661 lbs)!! It should be available in 2010.

[cfg83]

NeilBlanchard -

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hi,

Here's a great, detailed video tour of the Aptera factory:

...

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen it before. It really looks like a custom/kit car manufacturing process at this point. If they can achieve their $26K to $30K price goal, I think they could get well under $20K with a classic industrial manufacturing process.

CarloSW2

[c0da]

I would definitely roll in that VW or the Aptera if they were brought down to $20k. They don't need exotic material, just let the engineers design and keep it away from the artists. We don't need the huge audi mouth or any of fords blocky designs. Make them aerodynamic and lightweight!

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Here's a (virtually) complete collection of Aptera videos, on YouTube:

Aptera Youtube Group

BTW, there is an active Aptera forum:

ApteraForum.com - Aptera Car Forum -

[88CRX]

Originally Posted by Compaq888

I think it's bull**** to say that the consumers are demanding more bigger engines(car manufacturers), even if they were it was like 10 years ago. What do car manufacturers do??? check their opinion box every 10 years???

The were... perfect example the xB. Customer surveys said they wish it had more power. Toyota complied the new xB got the bigger engine...

but the xB sales are down.

They should have made the bigger engine and upgrade.

[ebacherville]

really i think the auto manufactures have had enough time to gear up for the high oil prices we really should be seeing more new models out now with 35mpg+ ratings.. heck it took chevy about a year to start the cobalt XFE model and that was a ,cam ,new programming and a gears.. come on this is sad ..

Really if manufactures started boattailing tere vehicals they could add load of extra cargo space push the wheel base a bit longer and make a better car over all and make the MPGs higher.. however i think the prius is a good thing even though i thing there a bad investment.. there changing the views o fpwople as there design isnt the norm there slightly radicle and thats a good shift tword better stuff in the future..

However automakers are suffering now.. id love to see where therte R+D is at.. chevy says that they will have the best MPG in the class for the new aveo.. well see.. i hope its a 45mpg car but bet it will be a 37mpg car..

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by i_am_socket

I'm loving this discussion

Me too.

Originally Posted by i_am_socket

I remember this thing. It was in all kinds of magazine adds. Oddly enough it seems to have gone extinct. Who's idea was it, anyone know?

[RH77]

I think it was the Governmental "AD Council" that came up with the "ESUVEE" Animal. The aim was to teach younger divers that driving an SUV was like a "bucking Bronco" -- or Bronco II (pun intended). Increased braking distances, tougher control, and potential rollovers were the focus. Toyota supported the funding as part of a settlement deal.

The animal is since extinct in live form, but can be found in Internet storage...

RH77

[wagonman76]

The automakers will never give us their best work. Because they know the government will keep on tightening emissions, and raising mpg standards, and people will always want something better. Theyve always gotta have something waiting in the wings for when something better is demanded, to keep themselves in business.

They probably continue to use metal because it is recyclable. Dont think carbon fiber is. They could use tube frames and safety harnesses to make cars stronger and lighter and safer. Nascar guys survive crashes at 200 mph. But the general public doesnt want a car that looks like a racecar inside.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

I would tend to agree. Most people I talk to think 25 mpg is good. I think I remember that the National FE in the US is 17 MPG.

I often wondered what planet these people were from. My 1993 350 gas 2wd rusted behemoth Suburban with 175K miles running crap ethanol gas and sea foam got 23MPG with 1500lbs of craft crap inside, tent and a rear platform for our genny off the trailer hitch doing 75mph (no I wasn't driving). Typically this gets 18-21 for the last 10 years depending on conditions but during the last year and some mystery oil later my mileage even in town has been running a tad over 20mpg. Only time it is extrememly terrible is during winter on short trips (which I avoid).

I know the 93 2wd 350's got better mileage than many Burbs, do to some gearing, tranny and computer mods (that were undone a year later do to unacceptable towing performance supposedly)

But come on? Why can't they duplicate what my beater truck does from the factory now? It is rarely hypermiled and is usually loaded to the ceiling as its used for setting up booths at fairs and shows.

Why can't american companies overcome their retarded mileage limits?

With a car rearend my 89 6,2ltr diesel suburban loaded got around 26mpg until the tranny started crapping out (GM like dodge Can't make a decent 4 speed)

Ah well, I will need to invest more time making electrics this oil BS gets me down.

Cheers
Ryan

[rmay635703]

Hmm that looks surprizingly a lot like their previous L1 or whatever it was called that they supposedly scrapped and gave up on in 2005 (it was supposed to be released already)

Funny how that stuff evolves slightly and gets recycled only to get scrapped again.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hello,

Here's a Volkswagen that gets 282mpg (0.83 liters per 100 kilometers)!


(click on image for a link)

Here's another article:
VW to relaunch 'one-litre' eco car | Green Cars | Low Emission & Clean Cars | Car Magazine Online



It weighs just 300kg (661 lbs)!! It should be available in 2010.

[Formula413]

Back when I had a subscription to Car and Driver (before I got sick of the rightward editorial slant and dumped it) I read an article talking about the ever increasing weights of cars due to things like the need for stiffer chassis' to handle ever increasing freeway speeds and more sound deadening for added refinement. But the article also pointed out that while cars have been porking up motorcycles, in particular sport bikes, keep getting lighter, because the manufacturers spend time in R&D trying to find ways to lighten the bikes while maintaining adequate structural stiffness and strength. The car companies have some very smart engineers working for them, if they would apply that talent to this problem curb weights might start moving in the right direction.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Does anybody know anything about the Think City car, or the Think Ox?

Home - Think