What are the rules of debate here?

[Frank Lee]

@ #29: No, it's not enough, because nothing in there is wrong.

[MetroMPG]

I smack my forehead at the above posts. Then I search my dictionary to refresh my memory on the definition of irony.

Sometimes looking after this place feels like running a big day care center.

[graesack]

We all like spirited discussions. We all like debating solutions. We all have differing points of view.

Let's all just take a deep breath and forget what was said in the past. Let's all move on. 'nuff said.

[Marc F.]

Metro, Your stuck with us! One big Dysfunctional family, LOL!!!!

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[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I smack my forehead at the above posts. Then I search my dictionary to refresh my memory on the definition of irony.

Sometimes looking after this place feels like running a big day care center.

And you're doing a dang fine job of it too I might add.....

When are snacks? I'm hungry.....

[Thymeclock]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

I've written at least 6 replies to this thread, and deleted every one of them. When I proof read them they just didn't come out as expressing what I really wanted to say.

Yeah, I've done that at times. More often I just do a lot of revision, which sometimes involves weighing every word. Still, some people will react defensively to just about anything, even when no offense is intended.

I probably shouldn’t wade into this, but I will in the hope that it might generate some thought about the differences between criticism and incivility. I have moderated a list for many years and have often thought about where the line is drawn, so here are some examples to think about.

Let’s say someone says “you’re wrong” or “you are misinformed (or ignorant)” or “that’s a stupid idea”. Is that uncivil? What if someone espouses ideas that are Socialist or radical environmentalist? Is it uncivil to point out that they are a Socialist or a radical environmentalist? Is that an “ad hominem” to identify them with the ideology they promote?

Now compare those with “you’re stupid” or “only an idiot would say that”. Can you see the difference? “You” are not your ideas; anyone is capable of changing their ideas, especially if they can be persuaded that their ideas or views are inapplicable, foolish or just plain wrong. But that is different than an outright insult. A genuine insult lacks any information other than to be insulting; it has no socially redeeming value, and it tells us nothing about the recipient but a lot about the one who is hurling the insult.

These days the trend is to label whatever we dislike, disagree with or take the slightest offense to as being an “ad hominem”. That’s currently the trendy buzzword phrase and it is often misapplied, or applied in an overly broad way. Pleas that we just “be nice” or “can’t we all get along” or “don’t be an asshole” (I’m merely quoting what was previously stated and allowed) are all nebulous and subjective, telling us nothing about where the line is drawn between criticism and incivility. But nowadays anything said that is critical or negative is increasingly considered to be an offense. On some lists the all the crybabies need do is cry "that's not NICE!" or "I'm offfffended!" and some moderators (afraid that anyone might become offended) leap to their defense. Fortunately, for the most part this list hasn't gone to such extremes.

I’ve found that those who cry “ad hominem” the loudest and whine about closing a thread when any altercation, negativity or discomfort arises are often the ones who provoke it, then cry foul at receiving a measured response in return that points out their own taunting or sarcasm which initiated the conflict. In short, they know how to dish it out, but can’t take it in return.

[Piwoslaw]

I have an idea: This thread was started to protest against name-calling. Since it too has degraded to just that, then let's go all out and sacrifice it. If you want to call someone an idiot, communist, republican, two-timer, anarchist, democrat, demogog, burnt chicken neck, etc., then do it here and send a PM to whoever got named with a link to your post. (If you can limit the name calling to a PM, without posting where everyone can read it, then even better!) Do not call him an idiot, etc., etc., in the alternator efficiency thread, or the EOC to red light thread, or any other thread except this one. This will be the isolated corner where we can throw mud at each other. It will be invisible to noobs and search engine bots, there will be a minimum post count and/or time since registered to come in here. Plus all posts will be deleted after 3 months.

Can we do this?

[SentraSE-R]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

I smack my forehead at the above posts. Then I search my dictionary to refresh my memory on the definition of irony.

Irony. The mood one enters when he/she feels like pressing clothes

[t vago]

Originally Posted by Piwoslaw

This will be the isolated corner where we can throw mud at each other. It will be invisible to noobs and search engine bots, there will be a minimum post count and/or time since registered to come in here. Plus all posts will be deleted after 3 months.

Can we do this?

You're basically talking about a "fight club" thread.

That won't work. They require very active moderation, and I severely doubt this board's admin team has the will to do this day in and day out, 24/7. I ought to know - I am a site admin for another car board, and I frequent still other vehicle boards. To date, I have yet to be kicked out of one.

It's been my experience that "fight club" threads (or forums) do allow venting of vitriol. However, they seldom limit the expression of bad feelings to be within said "fight club" area. Eventually, words are spoken, and feelings are hurt to the point where no matter what a poster has said anywhere else on that board, their adversary will also post to somehow refute the poster. The poster could even post something as simple and non-threatening as "I love kittens!" or some similar sentiment - that poster's adversary would come up with some personal attack that drags the feelings of the fight club thread into this other thread.

And the admin team? They simply won't care. No, it's not a slam against the admin team - really, they won't care. They're not really going to take the time to wade through all of the muck to determine who was right and who was wrong - not when all they see is the quality and stench of the muck in the first place. Oh, maybe they will... at first. However, when faced with "fight club" posts, day in and day out, with all sorts of bitterness both large and small, ranging from easily understandable to incomprehensible, the admin team will itself become insensitive. It's human nature. So, eventually, it will get to the point where the "fight club" thread spills out into the rest of the board.

Finally, deleting posts seldom works because a lot of bitterness can be said within the post life, and said bitterness will last well beyond the post's deletion.

What would I suggest instead? A more active admin team that catches these bad feelings well before they spill all over this board.

[Frank Lee]

I've found the ignore feature to be fairly effective and it doesn't put anything on admin/mods.