When is a hybrid a hybrid?

[NeilBlanchard]

Functions like a transmission in some senses |= a transmission. It *is* two motors, and the electricity is the common factor that lets them be used together. Neither motor can do it on it's own, and since both are used/combined/hybridized, that is certainly what a hybrid is at it's most basic. I don't understand why this isn't obvious.

There are many types of hybrids: parallel, series, semi-independent (with each motor able to be used by itself), combination of all three (like the Prius?), and there are so-called mild hybrids and so-called full hybrids. Some call an ICE car with the alternator only used when braking to charge the 12V starter battery, a form of hybrid.

A serial hybrid, to my mind is an EV with a range extender, that then allows the ICE to be used at it's peak efficiency all the time, and allows it to be a smaller displacement because it only needs to meet the average power level, not the peak. It eliminates the need for a transmission. An EV is about 2-3X more efficient than any ICE, and so why would adding range to an EV with a genset, suddenly turn the electric motor into a mere transmission?

[orange4boy]

I was never a big fan of labels. The term "Hybrid" is a fairly new moniker in relation to automobiles. It is a general term because there are so many ways to arrange technology to accomplish any goal: In this case getting somewhere using 4-ish wheels. As we know automotive companies are playing fast and loose with the term just like they do with sustainability, green, eco, whatever. I read something recently about sustainable war. The definitions are still evolving. Tomorrow may bring new ones. That's why I personally try not to get too hung up on labels, sound bites etc. It's too easy to start generalizing. Language is fluid. Ride the wave.

"Hey, did you see my new Tribrid? It's a hydrogen, solar, hydraulic drive unit with mag-lev suspension."

"That's not a Tribrid, that's a Tri-mode Bi-brid. Sheesh!"

Anyhow I'm sure you are all enjoying your debate. I know I am.

Ciao.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Functions like a transmission in some senses |= a transmission.

A diesel electric train uses such a transmission, just like a torque converter.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

It *is* two motors, and the electricity is the common factor that lets them be used together.

and without a recharge/regen facility it is just a transmission. You don't get to store energy and downsize the ICE.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Neither motor can do it on it's own, and since both are used/combined/hybridized, that is certainly what a hybrid is at it's most basic. I don't understand why this isn't obvious.

It is obviously an identical scheme to a torque converter. Just because electricity is involved instead of hydraulic flow doesn't change the fact that it transmits power from the engine to the wheels.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

...Some call an ICE car with the alternator only used when braking to charge the 12V starter battery, a form of hybrid.

That's a poor excuse for a hybrid.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

A serial hybrid, to my mind is an EV with a range extender

ok, but your EV comes with a battery and that is what makes it a hybrid.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

that then allows the ICE to be used at it's peak efficiency all the time

it also means that the motor and/or generator will likely NOT be at their peak efficiency, the ICE AND the generator AND the motor can't all be at peak efficiency at the same time, and you still get ~%20 losses when the transmission does happen to be at peak efficiency.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

and allows it to be a smaller displacement because it only needs to meet the average power level, not the peak.

and an engine that does not have the efficiency losses of running a generator/controller/motor for all its power can be smaller yet. You can still add or remove electric power in parallel if you happen to be in a situation where that would be desireable.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

It eliminates the need for a transmission.

The motor and generator transmit their energy to the motor, there is still a transmission of power involved. And what people have against transmissions is beyond me, but you are embracing a horribly inefficient alternative and still ignorant of it after years of having it explained to you.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

An EV is about 2-3X more efficient than any ICE, and so why would adding range to an EV with a genset, suddenly turn the electric motor into a mere transmission?

Because that is what it becomes from the ICEs perspective. The ICE has to transmit it's power to the wheels one way or another.

Why do you want to do things so inefficiently?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

...and so why would adding range to an EV with a genset, suddenly turn the electric motor into a mere transmission?

It doesn't (unless you've taken the batteries out). Think of those power paths. With range-extended EV, you have two paths: 1) battery -> motor -> wheels, 2) IC engine -> generator -> motor ->wheels. In path 2, the motor is part of the transmission, in path 1 it's a separate power source. Two (or more) paths = hybrid.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by dcb

and without a recharge/regen facility it is just a transmission. You don't get to store energy and downsize the ICE.

Actually you do get to down size the ICE considerably... even without any traction buffering batteries in the system.

ICE low RPM torque sucks compared to an electric motors low RPM torque... even diesels.

Because the train will still have just as many tons worth of mass contributing to inertia and static friction to get moving at near zero RPMs... or at low speeds up long steep hills.

To get that same pull out torque or hill climbing torque you would need to considerably oversize the ICE for those low RPMs.

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Also ... diesel-electric trains even without traction batteries do regenerative braking ... they convert mechanical power into electrical power ... this is another efficiency benefit as even without storage for the electricity it is more efficient and cheaper than using giant friction brake pads to accomplish the same task.

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The term Hybrid does not require multiple energy storage ... a Killer Bee is a Hybrid insect ... but does not store energy any differently than other honey bees... Hybrid plants do not store energy any differently than non-hybrid plants.

Some hybrids can be energy source , or energy storage hybrids ... but the term hybrid is not exclusive to energy storage methods ... this is clearly evident in the widely accepted usage of the term hybrid in other aspects of language.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Actually you do get to down size the ICE considerably... even without any traction buffering batteries in the system.

No, because you can add a "granny gear" to a regular transmission, with a lot greater transmission efficiency than driving a generator driving a motor. The inefficiency of such a setup will marginalize/negate your ability to downsize the engine.

Originally Posted by IamIan

but the term hybrid is not exclusive to energy storage methods

The phrase "hybrid vehicle" is not that nebulous though.

"According to the U.S. Department of Energy, a hybrid vehicle is one that employs two separate power sources, typically a gasoline-powered engine and an electric motor, which is powered by rechargeable batteries. Hybrid vehicles also feature a regenerative braking system, which, when combined with the dual power sources, allows hybrid vehicles to maximize fuel efficiency while reducing the negative impact to the environment."

A motor without electricity is just an anchor. A motor supplied electricity from an engine and a generator is just a really horribly inefficient transmission. A motor with a regen controller and batteries and an engine to supply additional motive force (either supplementing rotational energy or electrons) is undisputably a hybrid vehicle.

[dcb]

No, because you can add a "granny gear" to a regular transmission, with a lot greater transmission efficiency than driving a generator driving a motor. The inefficiency of such a setup will marginalize/negate your ability to downsize the engine.


The phrase "hybrid vehicle" is not that nebulous though.

"According to the U.S. Department of Energy, a hybrid vehicle is one that employs two separate power sources, typically a gasoline-powered engine and an electric motor, which is powered by rechargeable batteries. Hybrid vehicles also feature a regenerative braking system, which, when combined with the dual power sources, allows hybrid vehicles to maximize fuel efficiency while reducing the negative impact to the environment."

A motor without electricity is just an anchor. A motor supplied electricity from an engine and a generator is just a really just half of a horribly inefficient transmission. A motor with a regen controller and batteries and an engine to supply additional motive force (either supplementing rotational energy or electrons) is undisputably a hybrid vehicle.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Also ... diesel-electric trains even without traction batteries do regenerative braking ... they convert mechanical power into electrical power ...

It is referred to as "dynamic braking", it isn't actually storing any energy though, just heating resistors. It is a reasonable way to slow down an electric motor if you don't have batteries, but does not make it regen.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by dcb

It is referred to as "dynamic braking", it isn't actually storing any energy though, just heating resistors. It is a reasonable way to slow down an electric motor if you don't have batteries, but does not make it regen.

Yes. It'd be like calling a diesel semi a pneumatic hybrid because the Jake brakes act as an air compressor...

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by dcb

No, because you can add a "granny gear" to a regular transmission, with a lot greater transmission efficiency than driving a generator driving a motor. The inefficiency of such a setup will marginalize/negate your ability to downsize the engine.

curious

If you are so certain it is such a bad design concept ... so horribly low efficiency ... I am curious ... why do you think it is that none of the trains operate as you suggest? ... what is it that all those engineers and manufactures don't know that you do?

Originally Posted by dcb

It is referred to as "dynamic braking", it isn't actually storing any energy though, just heating resistors.

Not always... that is what they do with the excess / surplus.

Even if it is just used for heating resistors ... braking is not a function of just a transmission... and it forces the drive motors to be more than just a transmission... even is you are just adding brakes to the list.

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So if I am reading you correctly ... you are suggesting that the word hybrid itself suddenly has a drastically different meaning when applied to a vehicle , than it does in every other application of the term hybrid?


By your description it seems all the other uses of the word hybrid for plants , animals, insects , etc ... all of which predate the use of it for vehicles ... from your description all those are using the word incorrectly??

It would seem to me when the tiny minority started to use it differently in terms of vehicles , they were using the term incorrectly.

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one other curiosity ... if a train has access to either the grid for power as a trolley ... or a on-board generator ... and it can use either source ... even if it still has no batteries ... would you still not call it a hybrid?

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by IamIan

one other curiosity ... if a train has access to either the grid for power as a trolley ... or a on-board generator ... and it can use either source ... even if it still has no batteries ... would you still not call it a hybrid?

That would give it two distinct power paths, so it'd be a hybrid.