2002 Nissan Sentra

[Red Lion]

^I've also wondered that. I always heard stuff like the mining of the nickel for the batteries caused more pollution and the transportation of the nickel used more fuel than a fleet of Hummers would cause/use in their lifetime. Never been sure how much truth there is to that statement though...sorry to get off topic here!

[SentraSE-R]

Red Lion,

The California law applies on two lane highways only.

"Turning Out of Slow-Moving Vehicles

21656. On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, a slow-moving vehicle, including a passenger vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed. As used in this section a slow-moving vehicle is one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place. "

[El Duende]

Originally Posted by SentraSE-R

Its about 400 miles to my mom's in SoCal. I used to have to fill up midway. Now I hypermile, and count on getting there on one tank, no matter what I'm driving.

I go 55-60 mph max unless it's a two lane road. Faster traffic can go around me. Their hurry is their worry, not my problem. California law requires me to pull over if I have five cars stacked up behind me. I pull over and let them pass when I'm impeding traffic.

Being a hypermiler with a manual transmission, I get to use my BSFC sweet spots. The Spec V gets to accelerate at 90% LOD, which is pretty spirited. The acceleration is followed by a lot of slow coasting, but it's part of a big video game.

400 miles in one tank?! That's using every last penny spent on gas right there.

I'm surprised that it gets to the point where you have to pull over. That must be a hassle, considering the fact that you have to work your way back up to speed.

Don't know what "BSFC" or "LOD" stand for.

[El Duende]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Welcome to the forum. That's two new Sentras in the last week...



Large format batteries are among the most recycled consumer products. They contain valuable raw materials even after they've reached the end of their useful life. No need to worry about landfills overflowing with electric car batteries; it's not going to happen.

Toyota even has a bounty on its expired hybrid batteries/batteries from wrecks.

Not everyone's power comes from dirty power generation. Depends on where you live, and you may also have the option of choosing clean power generation by choosing your provider.

If you do some digging, you'll find evidence that even if an EV is powered 100% by coal, the inherent efficiencies of electric drive mean it's likely to produce fewer emissions than a comparable fossil fuel powered vehicle.

In addition, it's probably fair to say that the grid will get cleaner in the future. And so will anything plugged into it.

Thanks for welcome, MetroMPG. What can I say? The Sentra is a pretty cool car. Don't tell my "car guy" friends this, but I've always yearned for a blue or yellow convertible Metro three-door. That would be an interesting project car.

Anyway, if you read what I said about gasoline engines, (I presume you know this) by design they can be taken apart and rebuilt because of the several components that they comprise of, unlike a battery, which lacks such versatility. So while they may be recycled, they're not reusable. You didn't mention the process of recycling them, which is probably very wasteful in and of itself. Doesn't sound like much of an improvement to me. If a fuel injector fails on my Sentra, I'll buy a refurbished one and mine can be shelved for the next person who may need it. In the event of a more dramatic failure, like a blown headgasket, if I'm lucky not to have damaged the head, a new one get's my car back onto the road, otherwise, the engine from the block up, can be replaced or serviced. Tell me what you propose my friend's friend should do with his 05' Civic hybrid, (Reading 50k on the odometer) which suffered a battery-related failure instead of spending the quoted $5K on a replacement unit. I'll tell you what I recommended: for him to buy a fully gasoline-powered automobile. Had his Civic been of the traditional kind, it could've lasted four-times as much, even if he wasn't very car-savvy or responsible.

Is that so? Well, I'm not really too mindful of Toyota, because they rely on this "green" movement to hype their hybrid and electric cars. What motivates every automaker, other than conforming to government enactments, is diversity in their line-up. A mural of a Prius resting on a pasture with butterflies dancing their way outside of its tail-pipe is convincing to the green-head, as is the Tundra a section away, with it's hefty 5.7L V8 to my Texan next-door-neighbor, who has Magnaflow on speed-dial. That's just business to me. Power to them for using the shell of an energy source to drive future cars. (No pun intended)

Lemme guess... Nuclear energy, unless we can harness the power of tornadoes in the mid-west. Chances are, my choices are probably very limited, because TX hasn't exactly taken advantage of its alternative sources, like wind energy, for example. It's probably going to come from the smokestack 10 miles away; I wasn't exaggurating for the sake of analogizing. There's literally one next my house. So guess what, while you may have a more progressive outlook on the matter in choosing a less environmentally taxing option to support you, chances are that the majority will get their electrons from whatever that plug on the wall goes to. Maybe their motivation is different and they see their car as a future investment, hoping to break even with it, as opposed to what's best for Earth. Regardless of their situation, the reality is that when the wind blows my way, I'm making up for the lack of the 1.8L exhaust I have now just by stepping outside to get the mail. Look at the bigger picture.

Uh-huh, in what quantities are we talkin' here? Let's say, for the sake of the matter, that the battery powered personal transport will be so "effecient" that it'll replace all of our CO2-pumping machines that we're driving now. How many plants will it take to power all of our cars then? Don't tell give me a small number, unless you want to dedicate entire areas akin to the size of a modern-day city for unrealistically massive sites to be constructed on it. Being as environmentally aware as I presume most people on this board are, raping and pillaging more land as means to source our energy from is the same thing we've always done, only now were doing it a different way. Enough land has been destroyed.

As have gas-cars, yet they don't get the same credit for it. Instead of enhancing the engines, as advanced as they are, of today, someone thought it'd be more rational to overhaul the system of transportation as a whole instead. Cars have a noisy presence because of their harmonics under the hood. Have you read about the risk posed to the blind? Battery-powered cars make virtually no noise, making them a silent hazard to nearly everyone around them. They have no sound presence. Realistically speaking, if mankind wanted to be ecologically-friendly, (The true description of the many distortions I hear and read of "eco-friendly") then cars should never have been mass produced; the same could be said for many modern necessities, like homes, with their many amnenities and occupation of land. I'm in favor of making a transition into a renewable resource by other means. The battery powered idea is feasible for short-term rentals. Not everybody needs to own a car. How about running gasoline-powered engines a biased mixture of gas and another renewable fuel, at the very least? (E85 being the perfect example.)

I haven't gone into changing people's driving habits because the site advocates it. You guys are the pros at attaining such high MPG numbers and for that, I salute you. If only everybody tried driving slower and aiming for fuel-effeciency, instead of dissolving quarts of gas at a time making irrational maneuvers. (Some manners would help too.) Maybe then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Crude oil would last a long time. Responsibility for our actions and moderation goes a long way in this case.

[El Duende]

Originally Posted by rgathright

Welcome to the forums El Duende!
Thank you MetroMPG! You are first person online this year (2010) to bring this up in a response to the classic "smokestack" counterpoint on EV's...:

Thanks for the welcome. You're hardcore about this stuff, I can tell. My smokestack "counterpoint" is reality, not a wild-card for winning debates on eco-geek forums. It would behoove you to read my response to MetroMPG's post before attempting to interject our converstation any further.

[El Duende]

Originally Posted by Red Lion

Welcome to the site El Duende, from another Nissan Sentra owner. Believe me, you and I are not the first to hypermile these great little econoboxes. I drive an old B13 (93) SE-R, I love it.



I agree with SentraSE-R's statement, let them worry about themselves and risk their own necks passing you. Believe me, I used to get all nervous, watching my rear-view mirror, when people would rush up behind me and tailgate me. Now, I just sit back, chill, and think about how much cash I'm saving. Besides, it's not like they're going to compensate you for the gas money you'd waste going faster, so why worry about them? And you should probably see a good increase right away by just going slower.

Thanks! For a second there I, the image of my old B13 (We called it "the G-Ride," short for "the Good Ride.") had me daydreaming. It was a 92' with a cheap, but glittery light-blue aftermarket paint-job. The engine sounded like a kitten when revved and performed like one too, through the 3-speed auto that put the torque down. My, what bliss! The thing got more than 34 MPG in the city. I miss it dearly. You've got the bad-ass version, as does SentraSE-R of the B15.

I used to get the same feeling when people tried to rush me. I noticed more people driving slower and less erratic. Feels good to follow their example knowing that others surrounding us might do the same.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by El Duende

Uh-huh, in what quantities are we talkin' here? Let's say, for the sake of the matter, that the battery powered personal transport will be so "effecient" that it'll replace all of our CO2-pumping machines that we're driving now. How many plants will it take to power all of our cars then?

That's a red herring, because it's never going to happen. Electric drive will be a small part of the transportation mix, and probably not even close to the dominant component in our lifetime. Basically they'll be toys for the rich, and urban runabouts for 2+ vehicle households with other ICE vehicles.

EDIT: there's also the option of time-of-day usage. Power co's are shifting to pricing schemes and technological arrangment that will strongly encourage people to shift their optional power-intensive behaviour to off-peak times when the grid has spare capacity. EG: the car gets charged in the evening/night, unless of course you want to pay 2x more for the day time juice. This is coming regardless of the impact of EV's.

Have you read about the risk posed to the blind?

Yes, and I don't buy it as a serious issue. (And neither is is technologically insurmountable: Expect some kind of noise maker in production EV's at "idle/crawl" speeds. )

There are numerous models of ICE luxury cars that are virtually silent at low speeds as well. (Where's the outcry against quiet-as-the-breeze Lexus luxobarges? ) Where's the epidemic of blind people being run down by stealth bicyclists?

[El Duende]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

That's a red herring, because it's never going to happen. Electric drive will be a small part of the transportation mix, and probably not even close to the dominant component in our lifetime. Basically they'll be toys for the rich, and urban runabouts for 2+ vehicle households with other ICE vehicles.

EDIT: there's also the option of time-of-day usage. Power co's are shifting to pricing schemes and technological arrangment that will strongly encourage people to shift their optional power-intensive behaviour to off-peak times when the grid has spare capacity. EG: the car gets charged in the evening/night, unless of course you want to pay 2x more for the day time juice. This is coming regardless of the impact of EV's.

Yes, and I don't buy it as a serious issue. (And neither is is technologically insurmountable: Expect some kind of noise maker in production EV's at "idle/crawl" speeds. )

There are numerous models of ICE luxury cars that are virtually silent at low speeds as well. (Where's the outcry against quiet-as-the-breeze Lexus luxobarges? ) Where's the epidemic of blind people being run down by stealth bicyclists?

Makes sense. The idea still merits application in select cases, like those I mentioned before. They make good rentals.

Sounds like a solid incentive. Unfortunately, the fact that a consumer will be diverting his/her money from gasoline to a powerplant, the financial and environmental effects will remain the same. The car will be expensive, as I can imagine electricity bills. That's not convincing enough to consider it, at least not for me.

In the article that I read, Chevy worked with the National Federation of the Blind to come up with some sort of distinct audible warning for they're upcoming Volt. (Quite a creative name) That could also be a drawback, because the driver might feel safeguarded, leaving pedestrians to react to such unnatural cues. Kids and the elderly in particular are what concern me. Nothing beats a responsible driver. Not sure what an "ICE" vehicle is, but I live in an uppity area where people own those kind of cars. They still have that "engine sound" to them, (Kind of like a continous "ksh" noise) however insulated the cabin may be. "Stealth bicyclists?" You mustn't know any bicyclists. Those people might be even more aware of traffic flow and mindful of people crossing the street or walking/jogging in the sidewalk than a blind person! They're very in tune with their senses because they have to be. I share the road with them everyday out here in 45 MPH zones where my Sentra feels small. Those people are either crazy or inhumanly attentive. I'd say both.

[SentraSE-R]

I don't often push my tank fills to the limit, but I can always count on getting 400 miles to a tank in my Spec V. My last fill was 386 miles, and I took 10.53 gal (= 36.6 mpg, below my lifetime average), but I still had 2.7 gal. left in the tank to drive on - at least 50 more miles. My longest tank in my Sentra was 475 miles last November.

Actually, I've only pulled over for having 5 cars behind me once or twice. I usually just speed up. But I have pulled over on local country roads for just one car.

BSFC is Brake Specific Fuel Consumption - your maximum power produced for fuel consumed shown on a graph. LOD is the ScanGauge load value. Driving to use BSFC is a good way to maximize your mileage. LOD helps you do it most effectively on a manual transmission car. Automatics slip their torque converters in an out-of-control manner, so it's difficult to drive for BSFC with them.

[El Duende]

Originally Posted by SentraSE-R

I don't often push my tank fills to the limit, but I can always count on getting 400 miles to a tank in my Spec V. My last fill was 386 miles, and I took 10.53 gal (= 36.6 mpg, below my lifetime average), but I still had 2.7 gal. left in the tank to drive on - at least 50 more miles. My longest tank in my Sentra was 475 miles last November.

Actually, I've only pulled over for having 5 cars behind me once or twice. I usually just speed up. But I have pulled over on local country roads for just one car.

BSFC is Brake Specific Fuel Consumption - your maximum power produced for fuel consumed shown on a graph. LOD is the ScanGauge load value. Driving to use BSFC is a good way to maximize your mileage. LOD helps you do it most effectively on a manual transmission car. Automatics slip their torque converters in an out-of-control manner, so it's difficult to drive for BSFC with them.

I still can't believe you managed to get that high consistently with that car. You're saving some serious cash.

I'll look BSFC up and see what it is for my Sentra. That should help my MPGs. I've been driving more conservatively now and it feels good. Tomorrow I'll be performing that weight reduction I mentioned. I have high expectations of its overall effects.

And I just realized what you were referring to in your first post by calling me elf lol!